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 Re: You can and you must

Hia Brother Mike,

Just a few responses because you've got enough to deal with from other responders.

In your reply {2005/10/4 11:09:37}, you dealt with three types of people.

~The Unsaved.
~The ones who say they are saved but that's questionable, because of gross sin.
~Then, the rest of us Christians.

So when we say "Stop Sinning" ... which group do you want to focus on, because the "way" to deliverance differs for those, depending on which of these three groups they fall into ?

To and for the Unsaved ... I think our [b]only[/b] example of "perfect" witnessing is found in the N.T. and not by any past Revivals or evangelists since.

Many conversions are merely a reaction "at the moment", whether by emotion or fear, and the long-term fruit has never really been "surveyed".

So Jesus is our #1 example of what an Evangelist should be like, and then Peter, Stephen, Paul, etc..

Then, those two verses you gave, "Count the cost" for one, is to those BEFORE they commit to Christ 'for' salvation.
Most have not counted the cost 'before' Salvation, and for one reason, because the preacher or evangelist, didn't tell them there was a cost, (the complete death to self by taking up the cross and following Him) or they just responded to Christ as a fire escape .... and that is probably why we have, as you say, "christians" commiting gross sin. Like pornography, etc., that you mentioned, which could make one say, they are not or may not even be saved to begin with.

The "examine yourselves to see if you are in the faith", is to see if you are in "the [u]faith[/u]" ... which is what Paul preached ... "the [u]faith[/u]".

So for the Christian ... again .... ALL is summed up in the teaching of "walking in the spirit" and again ... that is not being taught ... and that is why all goes wrong in our teaching and speaking and with our lives. Period.

If we are walking in the Spirit, we would know what to say to whom and when (like Jesus did) ... not fulfill the lusts of the flesh ... not be self-rightous, will be walking as HE did, be transformed into His Image and will NOT GO BEYOND WHAT IS WRITTEN, because the Holy Spirit Never does.

It 'is' a 'both/and' thing ... but the "buffeting" (and 'reckoning' and 'obedience', etc.), is to get the body to "Walk in the Spirit".

One Scripture never neutralises, contradicts, nor undoes another, so Romans 8 and Galatians 3-5 is still our way out and how to 'be like Him'.

And being conformed into HIS Image is God's 'sole' purpose for us, the redeemed. And that goes WAY BEYOND just not "sinning", in the 'average' definition of that word. (The real definition, I gave on pg. 1)

His Love to you.


Edit: Once again pokey me ... your response to blake wasn't there when I started this reply. :-(

 2005/10/4 17:20

 Re: Stop sinning!!

Hi Blake,

I believe the first step in conquering sin comes from making a choice. The choice we have to make is: are you willing to give it to Jesus? Once we make that decision, once we decide to give our sin(s) to Jesus, He can then take them to the cross.

I'd like to add a scripture to your treatise. It flows in well with what Mike and Annie have written since your post too.

The thing about 'stop sinning' is it suggests that the rest of one's life, apart from 'the sin' is 'ok'. Well, yes it is ok but why? Beacuse of the work of the Spirit to make the death and life of Jesus Christ real in our flesh.

So here is my verse for you to consider. This verse brings not only the moment of 'the sin' to the Lord, but every second of our existence in between. It is [i]here[/i] that we experience the continuity of life in the Spirit, as Annie mentions. This contains your sentiment exactly, about bringing sin to Jesus.

1 John 1:7
But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. (NKJV)

Hi Annie,

It 'is' a 'both/and' thing ... but the "buffeting" (and 'reckoning' and 'obedience', etc.), is to get the body to "Walk in the Spirit".

This is part of the answer.

I once sat under the ministry of a very intelligent young man, who was born again, but in the throes of stewing through the implications of new birth for his fomidiable intellect and other aspects of his practical life - not just as it affected him alone, but as he was being [i]forced[/i] to recognise he had become part of a community of believers to whom he had responsibilities. It was very instructive listening to his musings.

This is one of them, which ties in with your quote. (I may have mentioned it elsewhere in a thread but it bears repeating.)

Annie, you were talking about 'walking in the Spirit'. He was talking about the operation of the gifts. I hope it is obvious that when one is operating one of the gifts of the Spirit, one is 'walking in the Spirit' or 'living in the Spirit' and this affects the use of one's body.

How we all love the thought that God is using us as an instrument of His Spirit in the lives of others - and it's a great (physical) [i]feeling[/i] - to be being used by the Holy Spirit in a special way. Further, this is a conscious choice the individual believer makes. My friend had pared this process right back to the point of choice - will I or will I not give the word which God is bringing to me by the Spirit?

He said
'You have to put the power of your body behind the gift.'

He went on to talk about tongues in particular, because I think he found that the most [i]interfering[/i] gift, as it relieved him of all thought processes.

But, he was also disturbed by having to give up free time, to join in church activities or worse, to go and do something helpful for someone else - someone he hardly knew - to care for them as a brother or sister - to paint their walls - what did he know about painting walls? Nothing? But they were blessed! And he concluded that this counted as 'walking in the Spirit', because it turned him away from doing with his flesh what he would rather have done (not sin, necessarily) but, maybe read a bit more OC! :-P

 2005/10/5 6:37

Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Sehla of sin

More often than not writing can be akin to etching on to a mirror, to see the thoughts developed as if they are just barely ahead of the understanding. That is to say, they can be an indictment to the writer. The short comings are revealed, the duplicity, the same similarities being compared and contrasted even if they may be on another line altogether.

Anger. "Righteous indignation"... A fine line to walk. Is it smugness or brokenness? There is a part that wants to just leave off this whole topic, exhausted spiritually, even physically, the part that says "I just don't care anymore".
But that is very much the problem and the tension.

Perhaps a bit of clarifying. Most things seem to rise up out of particulars, snap shots of circumstances, experiences. There is great deal of expression trying to be formed into some kind of cohesiveness and yet the tentacles are reaching out in all directions. To watch and wait for sin to run it's course... There is a pause to contemplate. [i]Who[/i] is long suffering?

Toward us?

Ramifications. There everywhere. Broken family's, schisms, suspicions and imaginations. Dis-trust. Haughtiness. Sneakiness. Flippant, glib, gut wrenching, heartbreaking.


Confrontation. If you are not given to this it can be devastating. In times past it would easily have been recognized primarily for a fear of man and surely there is still relics of that, which must be overcome as well. Part of this whole extrapolation is borne out of likely a long buildup and the top got blown off from recent events. To see not only our close loved ones but your own brethren and their loved ones suffering the ramifications of sin... and let me leave off the whole slicing and dicing here. This may prove helpful;

"[i]If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death. We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness. And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life"[/i].

1Jo 5:16-20

There is a great deal that in particulars not necessary to go into but two different confrontations occurred over the weekend. In one the anger rose to such an occasion that it was itself becoming sin, sought out counsel from the brethren here as it was happening. In a flash of inspiration perhaps and hope it was the Holy Spirit leveling me to a simmer.... wrote out the situation in no uncertain words, and made sure that it got into the hands, direct and to the point; 2Co 13:5 [i]Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates[/i]? It had to be said in this situation and it was exactingly because of the lack of grasping the ramifications of what this sin was causing. Even if devlievering it proved to be crushing. This is where the tentacles come in.

In a lot of this bouncing around and trying to draw out the thoughts it keeps coming back to the same thing. There is this new tolerance of sin that leaps to the grace of God and pardons the ramifications. Of course there is forgiveness, but the incredulous thing is that it leaves the victims (not sure I prefer that word) with the baggage, the pain, the sufferings while the offender goes free, or so they think. There may be some wailing and guilt, shame, response, a sorrow for the sin.... but is it repentance? And who am I to judge? But when it is this cyclical, roller coaster like continuance, month after month, year after year... something is dreadfully wrong. It does not escape me that a large part of it is precisely because of churches that will not practice church discipline, will not take the mandate to give one over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, whether it be for sexual sins or drug abuse, whatever the leaven that is infecting the Body. It is why this long pause of consideration to the effects and understanding of what sin is because it is in great danger of being completely swept under the rug. Being that our day seems stuck in a either\or motif the leap is to a cry of "Legalist" or "Liberal" whatever label us mere men come up with.

There is something extremely dis-honest about dis-honesty and how it can be carried in the same temple that is supposed to house the Holy Spirit... "Grieve not?" The wonder is, "Is He even present?" Hard words but that is the self examination. If one is to go on blinded by what their own actions are causing others to suffer through and not take a long look at it...

The other issue that came about and was a byproduct and even closer to home. The former effecting the same. It is difficult not to get into the details, but it becomes like a broken record and starts sounding like complaints. It was a different approach, it was 'anger' but subdued by sheer brokenness. Even the former situation has been addressed by compassion, reasoning, scripture, logic ... you name it, all of it bathed in prayer, sometimes fasting, perhaps not enough. Came across this, which seemed very fitting:


[i]O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.[/i] (Matthew 23:37-38)

The historic Temple was twice cleansed by our Lord; then when He came again to Jerusalem He no longer spoke of it as “My Father’s house,” but, “Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.” A terrible pronouncement, and a terrible possibility in our own lives. It is appallingly true that we may get to the place where Jesus can no longer say of us, “My Father’s house”; where He can no longer give us the benefit of scourging and cleansing, but can only retire, a weeping Christ, over our wilfulness. “How often would I . . . , and ye would not!” You have spurned and despised every messenger I sent, and now I say unto you, “Ye shall not see Me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.”

Is yours a desolated life, deserted in soul? Then in plain honesty don’t blame your father or mother or anyone in your family; don’t blame the fact that you had no education, or that someone thwarted you when you were sixteen, or that you were heartbroken when you were twenty-four, or had a business disaster when you were thirty. These things may be facts, but they are not to the point. Nothing that transpires outside me can make the tiniest difference to me morally unless I choose to let it. The desolation described by Jesus was brought on by the people of God themselves and by them alone. Is God saying to you, “You have spurned and hated and murdered My messengers”? If so, it will be a painful thing for your desolated soul to say—“Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord”—Blessed is the one who stabs and hurts and disillusions me as to where I am.

A sinner who has never been cleansed by the direct act of the Lord may hear the Gospel and receive the Holy Spirit, and He will do all the cleansing. Compare that condition with one who has backslidden, one who had been cleansed by God, but has allowed the traffic to get back, sensuality, self-seeking, self-interest; the “cattle” are all back, the “doves” and the “money-changers’ tables,” with a deepened and increased element of thieving. It is no longer making more for me and mine, it is a downright thieving of God’s time and opportunities, and God’s sacredness in other lives. That is what a spiritual thief does. Such a soul has to come back to God in desolation. It is no use to tell the backslider to receive the Holy Spirit, he cannot; the Holy Spirit will not be received by him; he has to come back to God in desolation. In the parable of the two sons some of the elements in the parables of the lost sheep and the lost coin are missed out—the shepherd goes to seek the lost sheep, and the woman searches for the lost coin; but the father does not go to the far country, the son has to leave the pigs and what pigs eat and come back; and if you have backslidden you will have to do the same. “O Israel, return unto the Lord thy God; for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity. Take with you words, and return unto the Lord: say unto Him, Take away all iniquity, and receive us graciously ”. Take with you words and say, “By mine iniquity have I fallen”—by lust, by worldliness, by self-interest, you know exactly what it is. You have been trying to find comfort here and there and you will never get it; your soul is night, your heart is steel; you have spurned and trodden under and despised God’s messengers, and you will only see God when you say, “Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord.” Then says God—“I will heal their backsliding, I will love them freely; for mine anger is turned away from him” (Hosea 14:4 rv).

Oswald Chambers
[i]The Servant As His Lord[/i]

All this to say that there is a brokenness that goes past feeling and despondence, depression, it is far from feeling smug about it, it is downright death inwardly, then comes the curious aspect of... am I feeling sorry for my self? Or is it more in line with;

2Co 7:8 For though I made you sorry with a letter, I do not repent, though I did repent: for I perceive that the same epistle hath made you sorry, though it were but for a season.

And did it stem from:

2Co 11:29 Who is weak, and I am not weak? Who is caused to stumble, and I do not burn with indignation?

Yes, the hope is to come to the same outcome of;

"Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing. For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death. For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what revenge! In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.
Wherefore, though I wrote unto you, I did it not for his cause that had done the wrong, nor for his cause that suffered wrong, but that our care for you in the sight of God might appear unto you."

2Co 7:9-12

Maybe the fear is in all the shortcuts between verses 8 and 9.

There is a sure hope and a sure Help, yet there is still much to address. Still pausing, painful as it is.

Mike Balog

 2005/10/5 10:26Profile


Hi Mike, I'm sorry if I may have been the one to frustrate you.

I think after what Dorcas and you have said on this, I'll keep this Rom 8 and Gal 5 stuff to myself. I think I've just read to much Watchman Nee and Watchman Net to be understood at all.

Sorry if I messed with your thread or with you.


 2005/10/5 11:25

Joined: 2004/10/12
Posts: 173

 Re: Stop Sinning!

There is something extremely dis-honest about dis-honesty and how it can be carried in the same temple that is supposed to house the Holy Spirit..."Grieve not?" The wonder is, "Is He even present?" Hard words but that is the self examination. If one is to go on blinded by what their own actions are causing others to suffer through and not take a long look at it...

No, in spite of all the manifestations of the Spiritual gifts, there is NO love. We still go home and watch pornography. We still talk about our “brothers and sisters” in the Lord. We still cheat on our taxes, etc., etc., etc. All the gifts will pass away, but LOVE never fails. LOVE submits, LOVE surrenders all, LOVE is never offended. LOVE doesn’t watch pornography performed by people who are on their way to hell. LOVE doesn’t curse their “brothers and sisters” in the Lord. LOVE doesn’t steal from the government. LOVE is CHRIST. His Spirit lives in us IF WE ARE REAL.
Is yours a desolated life, deserted in soul? Then in plain honesty don’t blame your father or mother or anyone in your family; don’t blame the fact that you had no education, or that someone thwarted you when you were sixteen, or that you were heartbroken when you were twenty-four, or had a business disaster when you were thirty. These things may be facts, but they are not to the point. Nothing that transpires outside me can make the tiniest difference to me morally unless I choose to let it.

Father God, Father of our Lord Jesus Christ please help me. I believe that your Son died for me. I want to serve Him, but it doesn’t go away. The pain, the shame, the continuing harassment and accusations by these deep rooted thoughts, and those awful invisible things that come at night. I didn’t know how to defend myself when my father did that awful thing to me when I was only 4 years old. I didn’t want to do this. I don’t think it was my fault. I asked my mother for help and she spanked me and said that I was a bad girl. Why does it still hurt? Why don’t I feel Your Joy? I went to my pastor, he prayed with me. Now I speak in tongues, he tells me that I am fine because I am filled with Your Spirit. Dear Lord, I am not fine. I hear in my church that Jesus came to give us an abundant life. Father, this is not abundant, I still feel the pain from so many years ago. I pray in tongues, they tell me that this helps. Father God it doesn’t. Please help me, I am desperate and no one listens. In Jesus name.

Hans Prang

 2005/10/5 12:21Profile

Joined: 2004/10/12
Posts: 173

 Re: Stop Sinning!

Dear brothers and sisters at SI,

The prayer in my last post is not a personal prayer. It is a compulation of the cries of the abused women (and some men) I have counseled through the years. It was my prayer, some 20 years ago, and Praise God, He led me to some people who walked with me.

I added this, because the Christians who pray these prayers are in all of our churches. They don't even dare talking, because they experience more abuse as a result. And very sadly, yes, they sin and are not able to stop until they are set free.

God have mercy on your Church!!!

Hans Prang

 2005/10/5 15:19Profile

 Re: Stop sinning!

One thing I found most helpful, was the idea that I was [i]already[/i] [u]all[/u] God's. This can be looked at both spiritually (as in Heb 10 - He has perfected for ever them that are sanctified) or, physically... that my body has the potential to glorify Him, because it is a very special kind of 'earth'... if I will ...

Look at these Bible verses, and think of this 'earth' as meaning... me or I or my body.

Genesis 1:26
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:

Genesis 2:7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground,

Psalm 24:1
The earth is the LORD'S, and the fulness thereof;

Psalms 47:7
For God is the King of all the earth:

Psalms 66:4
All the earth shall worship thee, and shall sing unto thee;

 2005/10/5 21:38

Joined: 2004/10/12
Posts: 173

 Re: Stop Sinning!

Dear Dorcas,

You said:

One thing I found most helpful, was the idea that I was already all God's.

That is exactly where people who feel dirty, unclean, and accused have to come to. In the last twenty some years I found only one lady who had been horribly abused, I cried when she told me her story, yet she knew that she was the Lord's and came to a much fuller knowledge of the love of Christ in a very short time. It would be so wonderful if every abused person, or children from occult filled backgrounds could be free so fast.

Hans Prang

 2005/10/6 13:20Profile

 Re: Stop sinning!

Hi Hans,

The basis for believing one is the Lord's rests in the verse in Hebrews 10, primarily, backed closely by Psalm 24:1 and the references to disobedient children in Ephesians. These are three different approaches - and there are more available - which inform the believer that nothing about them is unknown to God. The thing our minds struggle to come to terms with, when we know we are unclean, guilty or in sin, is that this thought - that all is open and naked to Him with whom we have to do (Heb 4:12 - 16) - is a [b]COMFORT[/b] to us.

Once one gets over that hurdle, it's possible to start entering into the benefit of acceptance by God in whatever state we find ourselves seeking Him and for whatever we find ourselves seeking Him.

 2005/10/6 16:39

 Re: Stop sinning!

Something comes to mind from about a year ago, which I'd like to share here. I was visiting a church which meets in a hall - a fairly free style of worship with a little leading from the front and usually one of the brothers prepared with a word to share. But, there was also an open invitation made if anyone else had something from the Lord. I had gone there with nothing, but, several things had come to me and were forming loosely into an exhortation - so I took the opportunity to ‘exhort’, before the word was given. During the word that followed there were other points I'd mentioned, which were in the word which had been prepared but I’m going to pick up on only one point. (That's one testimony to the ministry of the Holy Spirit.)

Although I was partly testifying about my own experience, I felt sure there was at least one other person there, who needed to hear the exhortation - for exactly the reason that LetUsPray has mentioned

They don't even dare talking, because they experience more abuse as a result.

I want to further preface my thought by reminding you I can't defend the theology of this; I'm just telling you this is true and if you need to eat this word, then it is a step on the way for you towards victory.

Have you ever noticed in films, how the goodie is never running away from the baddie. The goodie is always ready for the fight and even runs towards the baddie - even in the dark. The goodie is very sure that if he can catch the baddie head on, off guard or by surprise, he can win - even when the odds are against him. Single-handedly, he can take on, one by one, all the members of a gang as well as the gang leader. He uses various different methods to outwit them as well as brute force - stealth, seeing them first, dropping on them from a great height, creeping up behind them - I'm sure you can think of other strategies. Why does the goodie do this? Because he is DETERMINED TO WIN. His underlying attitude is that he is going to the last one to be defeated. NOW, we, brothers and sisters, need to take a similar approach to sin. We need to understand what is 'dangerous' to us and rather than letting it get the better of us, OUTMANOEUVRE IT DELIBERATELY - because we understand it and how it gets us.

In this, I am saying it is not only ok to 'think about' the sin we [i]like[/i] to commit, but we have to think about it in such a way as to take a note of the triggers which flick our switches. Just what exactly is the point of no return? NOW, having [i]understood[/i] the danger points, [u]use your brain[/u]. [i]Work out[/i] a way to avoid ever being there again. This way, God knows you're serious about pleasing Him and the more often you're obedient to turn away from the flashpoint, the more convinced He'll become. But, I can tell you, you won't even get this far if you haven't made a policy decision on the matter. No-one [i]drifts[/i] into victory.

Like a preacher I once heard said - 'If you tell me you're going [u]down[/u] to the kitchen but I find you going [u]up[/u]stairs, I'm [i]entitled[/i] to conclude that you lied to me'.

We have to be honest [i]with ourselves[/i], or there is no chance God will be convinced.

Now, while talking as every sin is external, this seems like a plausible proposition, but, the reality is that a great deal of the battle goes on in the mind. Do you know, the same principles apply? You can get so cute that you know you're sailing close to the edge of safe water and unless you start tacking hard, you're going to capsize. Even in your thought-life, you have choices and you can change the subject - if you are willing to discuss it openly with the Lord.

The exhortation I shared that morning in church, was similar, in that unless one understands the mind of the spirit from which one needs to be delivered, one is powerless to resist the pressure it brings for our bodies to comply with its wishes. As I said, I can't justify the theology but I know this is true. You can take control of (with the Lord's help) and resist an opposing (to the Lord) entity. In fact, and this is what I found myself sharing (slightly to my own surprise) you can [u]force it to worship Jesus[/u], even while it has you in a certain amount of bondage.

Philippians 2:9
God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

In saying all this about process, I do not deny the need for crisis, but, you don't need to [u]let[/u] it – sin - happen to you if you're serious about being free. You can take control and 'happen' to it, beginning with Jesus’s strategy -

Mark 3:27
No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will [u]first bind the strong man[/u]; and then he will spoil his house.

But, if you don't intend to spoil his house, do not attempt any binding. The decision to take back your possession has to have been made.. not toyed with or half-made. This kind of decision is big - like spending a lot of money on one purchase - not to be undertaken lightly.

An aspect of the foregoing is that you can do all of this on your own. You don’t need to be prayed for unless you are making no headway at all. Once you’re sure you’re stuck, then, ask for prayer.

Talking of prayer, now that I've said all this I feel slightly vulnerable, so maybe if you would, please pray I'll keep holding my own against the opposition, remembering he really doesn't care how he destroys us and once he's ruined one life, he just moves onto the next without a backward glance. Don't listen to his garbage, really. He IS a LIAR.

 2005/10/6 16:46

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