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Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132

 Love covers a multitude of sins

baruch_48 , there is a sense in which we have to trust each others heart, the very motive behind the comment or statement. I do believe if thoughs here who write poems, songs stories etc...would be willing to accept wise correction, they could strive to produce somethng of excellence that the Lord would take and prehaps send around the world to edify and encourage His bride.
We need to extend the mercy of Christ toward others that we expect to recieve from Jesus :-)

I've observed some things about Bro. Ron, he likes to stretch our abilities, make us think, reflect, ask questions. And though we may disagree on somethings, I believe I can trust his heart, the spirit with in witnessing to much of what he writes here. Our Love is suposed to cover each others multitude of sins. Bro. Daryl


 2005/10/7 4:16Profile

Joined: 2003/12/1
Posts: 124
New Jersey

 Re: The danger of attacking the person instead of the idea

Ironman wrote:
Baruch is certainly not the first you’ve treated with such contempt but I guess he’s the first to call you out on it.

This is a personal observation.

There is apparently a common tendency in those who take offense on the posts of others. The subsequent answers become personal. One of the dangers in this kind of forum is to assign motivation to a post. Scripture is very clear that even if the heart is desperately wicked, who can know it? I read and reread Bro. Ron's recent and older posts that triggered such personal attacks just to make sure but for the life of me I couldn't find contempt or malice in those. Or even pride. There seems to be a difficulty of dealing with people who oppose or disagree with our ideas. Many times the response was posted because the person is offended. More than once, posts came as a surprise like a viper coming out nowhere to bite because the response is full of bitterness. The answers expose the heart of the person. People and circumstances don't cause us to manifest unChristlike behavior (or posts) but rather just trigger what is in our hearts in the first place. If we are looking for malice or contempt, I believe that disqualifies us from giving an honest opinion because we'll surely find one. This reminds me of what the mother of Samuel Chadwick said: "You cannot tell the truth about people you don't like, and therefore the first duty you owe them is silence."

I understand Jesus never defended himself against the personal attacks and insults of others. If ever He did, it was in the defense of the truth and honor of the Father. May He heal us of the wounds that this issue has generated.

Rey O.

 2005/10/7 9:51Profile

Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: The point being

There is a great deal of forbearance on this site, a great deal. [u]But[/u] and to reiterate this kind of open slander and there is a vast difference between what one might consider 'rebuke' and intent to exalt ones self over another, careless, emotionally charged words without thought, a dividing, a schism, a taking sides... This all will push those boundaries to a breaking point. A part of this forbearance is that reconciliation can be made, openly, wrongs righted, faults admitted, forgiveness sought.

Something glaringly missed through this whole issue brought forth is in some of these responses. That they are making the point themselves.

First off their is absolutely no room for any of this sectarian spirit here. Public or private. If an issue is bothersome in public here it needs to be addressed where it was found and might I add once again that there is far too much reading into things that ought to reflect a self examination. Again and again and again... A question is not necessarily a statement, but a question. It was mentioned rightly in another thread, many are far too easily offended and sometimes due to a faulty perception other members here are looked at with a jaundiced eye that colors everything and begins to twist the mind towards this "I know your type mindset". It is pure rubbish and grievous. Keep in mind that this is not in isolation but before a whole body of believers that spans great distance in culture, upbringing, spiritual knowledge and yes history. There are some longstanding members here who have greatly benefited this site like our friend Ron, Philologos and I take a great deal of umbrage at this slighting, that is far different from being offended or coming to the defense and furthering a dividing into 'camps'. This is and was the point of this whole discussion at least in part. If you cannot say it in public you ought not be stating it in private. This is intolerable amongst Christians, what manner of Spirit are we?
This isn't offensive, it's repulsive. And it needs to stop right now.

I would suggest that those who have responded here re-read your own words carefully and mark the haughtiness and open slander, it is overt in some places and uncanny that it is not recognized by the writers themselves. Some of who have made the point of all this explicitly by their reactions, what is seething underneath that brings out these things?

Misunderstandings are always going to be present in this medium, but this forecasting, presumptions, reading into things, making assumptions about brethren is appalling. Judging the words or ideas used is right and helpful if we are to learn from each other, but these personal attacks, character assumptions and assassinations, high-mindedness ... how is it that the very things that can be discussed fail to be reflective of the Christlike Spirit that ought to be evident? That the very words of our lips are not indicting the writers themselves? Is it our particular opinions are worth more in this setting than the greater good and that one never knows who may be peering in on these things?

And the greatest and foremost thought...

Does the Lord not see?

Mike Balog

 2005/10/7 9:55Profile

Joined: 2003/10/15
Posts: 1632

 Re: Forbearance


Thank you for bringing this subject back up!

I want to interupt this thread a moment and comment on how much it makes me grateful, O, how thankful I am that I am not the same as I was when I first came to this forum. The Lord has used this forum to change me and grow me in forbearance. And I knew that I needed to. I didn't see it all happening when it did happen, but I can look back and see it now. Not that I am where I would like to be. I am still learning and pressing on....

I can look back two years ago and see how I was presumptious. I was offended easily. I had much "self" to die to still- and probably still do ;-)

I can look back and see how I withdrew and sometimes lashed back because of offense. O, how my pride came shining through!

If we will just let these things show us what's truly in our hearts and let these things chnage us and grow us to become more of Him and less of us.

I look at it like that, what comes against me (sometimes is just coming against my flesh), what tribulations and trials i have (even in arguments, etc...) God is working to make me LESS.

Until you really get to know someone.... Let me say as one who has been on this forum for quite awhile (not as long as Ron or Mike :-)) but just when you think you know someone, you don't. God likes to take our prideful, little know-it-all selves and show us that HE is the only one who knows it all- and it doesn't feel nice when that happens. Just for the record, I am only talking about myself here and no one else.

[b]"...let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath"[/b]


I have saved this little bit on Forbearance for a long time and I never get tired of haivng to read it:

"Forbearance is reasonableness and
consideration in dealing with others. To have forbearance is
to deal with others without strictness of legal right. If we
would live a calm life, we must have forbearance.

Forbearance includes patience and moderation, but goes beyond
them. If you have forbearance, you will not argue with
others, fight with them, or debate with them. You may have a
great deal to say, but you will have patience and moderation
in dealing with others and will not say anything in response
to provocation or irritation. Forbearance is versus rivalry
and vainglory, two negative things mentioned by Paul.
Forbearance is also opposed to murmurings and reasonings.
Whenever we have rivalry, vainglory, murmurings, and
reasonings, there is no calm, no tranquility, no forbearance."

In His love, Chanin


 2005/10/7 10:26Profile

Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4499

 Re: The danger of attacking the person instead of the idea

Hi TheophilusMD...!

I really appreciate your comments. Sometimes, I do feel that the rebukes on the forums can be quite personal, or concern doctrinal positions that are not completely settled. I also feel that such rebukes, as carried out in the forums, do not meet the Biblical standard for rebukes. I wrote the following in another thread a few days ago:

Recently, I began reading about the biblical definition of rebukes. I sometimes fear that the rebukes found in the pages of forum threads are far too public than they should be. I am not talking about an open rebuke from Greg (sermonindex). I am talking about constant rebukes from one another over certain issues of doctrine or belief. The Bible is quite clear about the way a rebuke ought to be carried out. First of all, the offense requiring such a rebuke should be obvious from the Scriptures. Secondly, the rebuke is meant to be helpful. Third, the initial rebukes are meant to be private. And if the rebuke is ignored (and the sin is ongoing), the rebuke can become public (first with another person, then with elders, and finally within the Church). If someone still doesn't listen and they openly continue to sin, then there is the step of disfellowship (Matthew 7:1-5; Romans 14:13; Leviticus 19:17-19; I Corinthians 1:10-11; 4:14-21; 5:1; 11:20-21; 13:1-7; II Corinthians 10:1; Galations 6:1; Philippians 2:1-3; I Thessalonians 2:7-11; Hebrews 12:6; Revelation 2:1-21; 3:19). But the open rebukes found in our forums are often heated -- and concern debatable doctrinal positions (rather than sin). And often, they seem to be confrontational rather than edifying. In effect, what starts as a "loving rebuke" turns into a heated argument.

May God help us to show such love and compassion in our words!

-I have really enjoyed the PM feature here at SermonIndex (even though I don't use it very often). Ever-so-often, someone comes online who hasn't been here for a while, and it is a good way to let us know that they are here! It is also a private way to let someone know that you are praying for a particular situation that a person might not want out in the public.



 2005/10/7 11:32Profile

 Re: What is The Truth. Only GOD knows.

Having been one who has received similar treatment as what crssck and baruch spoke of, and seeing it done to others from the same sources, I suppose it all depends on 'where' it's coming from. Some can get away with judging hearts and motives and openly rebuking, some cannot. Some stealthfully, others blatantly.

Chanin, I too have been 'changed' here ... like most internet places, you have the elite and those who will compromise truth to stay in good with them, or to have a better or safer position with those on top. And those on the top, need no other qualifier for being there but to have the money or desire to buy webspace. No other credentials are required to be an authority or authority figure.

Cyberspace has offered anyone the chance to be 'somebody', just by acquiring a URL or by serving one whom has.
I've seen people actually make up a non-existent "identity" for themselves with websites and going so far as claiming to be this or that, when actually they were none of that in real life.
Claiming to be Missionaries, Pastors, you name it, and making their website to bring glory to themselves. I've even seen entire sites based solely upon what had been plagiarized from others.
Never before in the history of the Church, can anybody buy themselves world wide coverage or position.

Sort of changes the whole concept of how THE BODY OF CHRIST is supposed to operate.

My change is not for hopefulness. It has only caused me to say, despite those I've grown to love, that self-righteousness comes in many forms, some out front, some intellectually stealthfull ... and I'd rather deal with folks who are openly human and who know they are, then those who've worked their way to what they see as some sort of Top or some comfortable position near the top, merely to be somebody or have their place or Some place in cyberspace.

The change in me is seeing, that there are different rules for different folks, all dependent on their position on the URL.

One can dismember people in the view of the entire world on a public internet site, but others dare not touch those who sit as the Untouchables, on that higher level of this totem pole type system called Christian websites.
Totem pole systems do not exist in the actual Body of Christ, but on Christian Forums or websites, they do.

The higher one is on this Christian totem pole system, the more the rules change.

If you are near the top, you can email each other and discuss the 'underlings', but the underlings PMs will be watched, that they are not doing the same.

I know the Forum system very well, because I was in it ... on all levels.

Equality does not exist, nor equality in the rules of decency. The same rules we ourselves would require out of our own Churches.

The change in me, makes me feel hopeless and feeling that this general pecking order that exists on most 'Christian' Forums, (but should not, according to God's view of The Body of Christ), is the same, no matter what 'appears' to be the spoken goal or focus of the general Site.

My change is that, it's been reconfirmed to me that the only safe place, where 'accountability' can really be engaged, is in face to face, flesh and blood, in person type meetings of the Saints.

In cyberspace, one can just click here or there and dispose of people ... say things they would never dare say, if face to face in a Church setting, but 'can' here, because of the position they've made for themselves in cyberspace.
On websites disinformation about another human is rampant and fairness is secondary to one's desire to maintain their position on The Net.

At least if things go sour within the four walls of a church, only those within the four walls are aware of it ... here, because actual faces are not seen, the actual 'flesh and blood' of the person or the time taken to actually get to know someone's life, then 'whatever' can be done to them without a chance of self-defense on their part, those being so blindly judged by those who have climbed closer to the top of the pole, can get away with the subtlest forms of hypocrisy, subtle attack, or stealthful self-righteousness, where we have to just take some people's word for what they say they 'are' or "have become since being here" and the same form of judging and gossip that they do, is phobically watched so that it is not happening between or by the underlings.
And what one sees in themselves as "growth", can be nothing more than "compromise", just to be accepted by those is some position or the desiring of some position in cyberspace themselves. They'll even disgrace their own family members to get that cyberspace image. Whatever it takes. Compromising with the True Truth, that we'll all have to stand before God one day about, just to make a name, where they had no name prior to The Internet.

This has changed me too. I no longer am a 'forum person' and will stay in the safer places; of being with flesh and blood members of One Body, who have to look others in the eyes when they say things, and cannot take a position of being more of an elite type that can discuss others behind their back but feel justified in doing so, because of their self acquired position or because they flattered their way to be near those who've made their own way to some top.

In a good Church, Cast systems do not exist ... flattery for position is seen for what it is, members are not dismembered publicly by the leadership, there is equal accountability because the Pastors and elders can be fired, people cannot be discussed without them being present, the playing field is leveler .... but again, that is only in a Church that sees, in our flesh dwells no good thing, literally sees, and that the hearts of ALL of us are equal (desperately wicked), despite position or what we say we are inwardly and that one cannot buy themselves a position as one can in cyberspace.

No, as long as this Cast system exists, it is not The Church. But nothing is hidden from the True Owner of the Universe that cyberspace is just a Very miniscule part of.

I can truthfully say, my only benefit of having been here, was those I leave with in my heart only.

Either way, see we'll see each other, face to face, sure enough, when The Boss Comes Back.

 2005/10/7 12:50

Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA


Whatever the intent is here if this is being directed at this particular forum, none of what you have said applies. This could not be further from the truth.

This straw man doesn't exist, why try and prop one up? For life of me where this idea of a pecking order comes from ... this is a self fulfing prophecy, but it has not and will not be one to come to pass here God willing.

If you are near the top, you can email each other and discuss the 'underlings', but the underlings PMs will be watched, that they are not doing the same.

Again, if that is intended to apply here you are sadly mistaken and that is quite a charge to be leveled without any supporting evidence.

I am not sure just what causes these underlining suspicions and accusations it is all rather disheartening. If anything to attempt to be set apart from the 'norm' if it must be put that way, is not to exhalt nor to degrade anybody else's way of going about things. But there has been a tremendous effort of heart, sweat and tears to just attempt to mitigate all that goes on here.

To just have some real discussion and sharing of this incredible life with the Lord and with each other. There is such a vast resource here and it is all freely given. How sad that it has to be attempted to be brought down to the gutter of so much triffling over so many misconceptions, that personal injuries are taken to heart so easily and the whole incredible reach just overlooked.

There is a different perspective to be seen. From this angle it is one of great humility and yet responsibility and great honor and greater trepidation. There have been many failings and sure to be many more.. I am sorry Annie, but this is just not true and I am sorry if you cannot see it any other way.

Mike Balog

 2005/10/7 16:26Profile

Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 69
Flinstone, GA


I read some of the forum posts - occassionally use PM, but what I enjoy most is listening to and watching the sermons.

I said that to say that maybe I've missed it by not reading all the threads, but I'm not sure where all the bitterness is coming from. Greg, Mike, and the other moderators seem to do a great job of getting sermons uploaded and moderating forums. Let's support them, not tear them down.


Kendal Shipley

 2005/10/7 21:11Profile

Joined: 2005/3/1
Posts: 156
Tacoma, WA


I can't say its worth much, but I have two comments.

Pride is confusing.

And even in public places, it is quite possible to wait for an appropriate time to talk quietly with somebody off in a corner. In a party of thousands, conversations can easily go unabated amongst two.

David Reynolds

 2005/10/7 23:20Profile


Mike, I had hoped to not have to come back on to explain what was meant in my "indirect" comments above, but if you'd prefer a living model rather than what you called a "strawman", would that have made it better ?

I could bring up last Sunday on the Announcement board, that initially started with emails between some judges who made the final decision together.

I could bring up a point by point example of each sentence I wrote, by pulling quotes and showing the very words of those examples ... but I was trying my very best to speak in such generalities, so that maybe some of us could 'see' and not do those things again to others.

Even on page one of this thread, there is proof of what I mentioned above, and I could pull that quote and others on the board like it ... but again ... I'm not as monstrous as you may presume. Far from perfect, but not out for blood.

I may not prefer this method of communicating any longer, but even with my intent to leave, I kept the generalities as just that, so that , maybe there could be a more open approach and level playing field, so that large exposes would never be comtemplated again, etc. no matter to whom they are directed.

I pray that we all can see ourselves in everything we write to others, and not feel that because our "words appear" more "polite or polished" than others, that they may not be just as cutting or arrogant.
Words can camouflage an awful lot, if not read with discernment.

I didn't write the above out of 'my' being offended, or to bring down a whole system, but that others could possibly see where we are [b]ALL[/b] GUILTY, despite our tone or choice of words. And we're ALL GUILTY because we are all flesh, and in our flesh dwellth NO GOOD THING.

Or does someone disagree with that also ?

We can be saying what appears to be so polite and condescending etc. but it can be the epitome of pride at the same time.

"I thank God I'm not as mean and nasty as Annie, or ________."

 2005/10/8 0:29

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