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philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re: the whole church

I had in mind this reference to the 'whole church' in I Cor 14:23. Is Paul speaking hypothetically here or is he implying that there could be gatherings of the church which were not the 'whole church'?

I feel the man/woman instructions in 1 Corinthians have primary reference to a 'public gathering of the whole church'. In this context the man represents Christ and the woman represents the Church. In the symbolism of this it is important to show that the Man (Christ) is the authority rather than the Woman (Church). In this public demonstration of of Christ and His Church the symbolism is important, apparently angels are watching [1Cor 11:10)

Where the Church is on display the 'sign language' is important. When Paul was speaking in a public hall in the school of Tyrannus would the sisters have covered their heads? It was not custom for Greek women to do so. But 'in the Church' Paul seems to be indicating that they should and that the men should remain uncovered. In doing so he would have offended almost everybody; the Greeks whose men and women remained uncovered, the Romans whose men covered their heads but whose women remained uncovered, and the Jews whose men and women covered their heads. The fascinating oddity here is that Jewish men in the church, whose law for centuries had specified that men in proximity to God must cover their heads, were now being told that they must no longer do so.

I think we have some powerful 'sign language'at work here and I suspect that the prohibitions to teaching for the woman are part of the same 'sign language'. It has nothing to do with the womans acceptance in Christ, nor of her being fully functional in the body, nor her technical ability but is 'sign language'. WKIP


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Ron Bailey

 2003/12/1 6:27Profile
Nasher
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Joined: 2003/7/28
Posts: 404
Watford, UK

 Re:

Quote:
It has nothing to do with the womans acceptance in Christ, nor of her being fully functional in the body, nor her technical ability but is 'sign language'. WKIP



In 1 timothy 2 where it is speaking about women not being permitted to teach, Paul qualifies what he has said with this:

13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Why does Paul use this example?


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Mark Nash

 2003/12/1 6:43Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Nasher's quote: 13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Why does Paul use this example?

Did we touch on this in the Original Sin thread? Adam was the head of the race and uniquely responsible for its destiny. Eve sinned first but her sin did not impact the rest of the world; Adam sinned and everything tumbled down with him. This is authority again.

Adam and Eve are a thrilling picture of Christ and His Bride. While he slept, God brought out of his death-sleep that which would become his companion and bride. Now,again, was that last sentance a reference to Adam and Eve or to Christ and the church?

When Paul speaks of man and wife in Ephesians he comments this is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church In one sense whenever God speaks of man and wife He speaks concerning Christ and the church.

I think the same imagery is still in the mind of God in your 1Timothy 2 reference. The creation sets forth the unchanging symbols of Christ and the church. In this context of authority it would be inappropriate for the woman to set the future patterns. Was this last statement a reference to Adam and Eve or to Christ and the church? Whatever the local context God is always speaking concerning Christ and the church

What do you think?


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Ron Bailey

 2003/12/4 10:16Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
I think the same imagery is still in the mind of God in your 1Timothy 2 reference. The creation sets forth the unchanging symbols of Christ and the church. In this context of authority it would be inappropriate for the woman to set the future patterns. Was this last statement a reference to Adam and Eve or to Christ and the church? Whatever the local context God is always speaking concerning Christ and the church


I truly believe that whatever God sets as rules and relationships in the physical, they are types and ensamples of the Spiritual. So I really believe that marriage is really a type of relationship with Christ. In heaven there is no marriage for we will be like that angels. Does this do away with the rules set out.. no! but it does show us the great signifigance of these truths in the bible. So Ron to your question: "reference to Adam and Eve or to Christ and the church?" I believe its both, but the weight is always on the spiritual side.


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2003/12/4 17:44Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
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Reading, UK

 Re:

Greg's quote of my quote! In this context of authority it would be inappropriate for the woman to set the future patterns. Was this last statement a reference to Adam and Eve or to Christ and the church?

Greg's quote: So Ron to your question: "reference to Adam and Eve or to Christ and the church?" I believe its both, but the weight is always on the spiritual side.

Hi Greg, I chose my words very carefully with deliberate ambiguity to show that such a statement can and must refer to 'both' and that I think this is the reason that Paul refers to it in this context.(which was Nasher's original question. You see, sometimes preachers do answer questions. The problem is that preachers give you answers but teachers give you explanations!} :-P :-P


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Ron Bailey

 2003/12/4 18:08Profile
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Watford, UK

 Re:

I agree that Paul is talking about authority in verse 13, but why does he talk about deception in verse 14?

Was Eve/are women more/differently susceptible to deception than Adam/men?


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Mark Nash

 2003/12/5 4:38Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
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 Re:

I think there is a basic safety as we walk within God's stated parameters. When we move outside those parameters we become more vulnerable.


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Ron Bailey

 2003/12/5 12:20Profile





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