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Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

I appreciate you as well Annie! I share your longing to see Jesus return sister.

Quote:
Katrina has nothing whatsoever to do with the destruction of Rev. 18, so you cannot compare the two, Scriptural.


Keep in mind, that I was simply trying to imitate the logic of those who apply these verses to current events. In fact, I agree...the scipture wasn't talking about Katrina. Furthermore, my point is that we are not yet those glorified saints praising God over the destruction of Babylon... That is future tense.
Quote:
So, to "long for His appearing" is a bittersweet thing indeed, yet we are to long for His appearing, Scripturally.


Bittersweet is a good word for the duality that this issue raises. My only counterpoint to this familiar theme is that we should first long for Christ's return incarnationaly, before we long for him eschatologically. Both are required if the church is be “prophetic.”
Quote:
""I believe God is deeply saddened by this, just as we are, but for years we've been telling God to get out of our schools, to get out of our government and to get out of our lives.


Graham makes a popular point but I think it misses something...we cannot have it both ways. If we don't like our religion and state mixed...if that is a form of Babylon...then her complaint is pointless. If Christians are attending schools and involved in government then Christ is still in these institutions. The Lord does not dwell in buildings, He dwells in His people. We do not need symbols of Ten Commandments and Morning Prayer rituals...we simply need Christians who live incarnationally, obediently bringing Jesus into these realms.

(edit; another deleted point for another time...)

I know to talk about Christ in secular roles borders on absurdity because much of our tradition keeps Christ preaching safely under an olive tree on the hillside or in the temple...far away from the irreligious world we actually live in. But this is the unreality that we have to stretch past if we are going to remain vital to the world.

New Orleans is a good example.... there will be some Christians who will be saying "I told you so" and leave, and there will be other Christians, some who are engineers, contractors, even politicians, ect. who will come to live and rebuild the city. The difference between the two groups is profound because only the latter group will have the right to preach the Gospel in New Orleans.

Blessings,

MC


_________________
Mike Compton

 2005/10/4 17:28Profile









 Re:

Hia Compton,

I think we've veered off the original discussion from the previous page ... but that's alright, I'll try to keep up with ya.

The second part of her quote, was what struck me more than the first part, that you took from.

Here she's finishes with .... ""And being the gentleman He is, I believe He has calmly backed out. How can we expect God to give us His blessing and His protection if we demand He leave us alone ?""


Her brother is most involved in helping down there and no doubt this woman has sent her good share of aide also, so we should be careful in our judgments on her.

But, as far as my statements and yours, and please don't take offense with me here ... but some of your response sounds sort of "reconstructionism", Pastor James Kennedy style.

I don't see where, a [u]few[/u] "Christian" politicians (do you know any ?), or others employed in this country have had any impact on the slippery slope of gross immorality that we've seen, just in our lifetime.

To "be like Christ" in this world, is to fulfill all New Testament Scripture in our own thinking and actions. So that is our only way to view this nation or any other. If we go beyond what He's written, regarding righteous and judgment, or whatever else, we've NOT lived as "Christians who live incarnationally".

We've done the super-market way of picking and choosing Scriptures, some here and some there.


We are in the world but not of it, we are to "hate our life in this world" and to "hate the world and the things in it", but to lay down our lives in His Service.
For each other and for the spreading of the Gospel, yet not put on rose colored glasses, JUST because this happens to be the country we live in and are presently Very Comfortable in.

'If' we live in a country, that God will eventually say, ENOUGH to, well then our hearts must respect HIS Righteousness over our own interests.


And yes, I sure do appreciate you also. Amen.

Annie

 2005/10/4 18:02
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Quote:
Her brother is most involved in helping down there and no doubt this woman has sent her good share of aide also, so we should be careful in our judgments on her.



Annie, I only disagreed with her intepretation of Katrina. I did not pass judgement on her. Let's not burden unity with consensus! By the way, I think she is an excellent author!

Quote:
... your response sounds sort of "reconstructionism", Pastor James Kennedy style.



I don't know what that is. Is it bad? Labels are usually derrogative, so it must be.

Quote:
'If' we live in a country, that God will eventually say, ENOUGH to, well then our hearts must respect HIS Righteousness over our own interests.



Most certainly!...for me this discussion, ( living in the "United States of Babylon, ;-)) is about developing a proper understanding of that righteousness should the Lord tarry.

I'll pipe down for a while and let others share the bandwidth here. I don't want to champion some new idea...I was just trying to reconcile some contradictions in my mind.

MC


_________________
Mike Compton

 2005/10/4 18:20Profile









 Re:

Hi again brother.

No "reconstructionism" is not a "Label", it's a belief system.

Yeah, it's "bad" .... but I don't think you're "bad" and I even doubt that you 'are' a Reconstructionist. :-D


TTYL
Love.

Annie

 2005/10/4 18:46
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re: Christian Reconstructionist

Thanks Annie,

I looked it up. I knew it as dominion theology which I certainly do not endorse!

"Reconstructionists -- also called "theonomists" or advocates of "dominion theology" -- want to impose "biblical law" (or, more accurately, their interpretation of biblical law) on the United States. Under their view, democracy should be scrapped and replaced with a theocratic state based on a literal reading of the Old Testament's legal code.

In a "reconstructed" society, government would be dramatically scaled back. Most government institutions, including public schools and various welfare/social service programs, would be abolished and replaced with church-run efforts. Political leaders would look to the Bible, not the Constitution, as the nation's governing document."

Wowwee. :eek: I thought I was the one saying we didn't need a plaque of the Ten Commandments in our court houses to have Christ present there (Not against it either...)If only Christians would be filled with Christ's Spirit and fulfill the law. :cry: My perspective is better captured in an Amy Carmichael poem about Christians ministering in a prison. I don't remember exactly but the poem, which depicts a scene of ministers and lay people being checked and admitted through the security gate, ends with this thought. "The warden can't see the One whose invisible feet follow them in." So, we don't need more plaques in these places...we need more Holy Spirit.

In all honesty, I was saddened when I read about this belief system. I am glad to say that I don't know anyone who thinks like this. Christian Reconstructionism sounds like a another term for fascism.

I am fundamentally a proponent of separation of church and state. A key feature of my version of state/church separation is that I don't believe Christians should be denied participation in their a truly representative government.

I believe the only way to keep a real separation is to place Christians on equal political footing with the rest of society...not above and not below. I am fine with a Christian being able to participate and serve according to their secular administrative and judicial qualifications.

Just don't tell me to vote for you just because you are a Christian...I'll take it as a deep insult to my intellect and my faith.

I was going to bow out of this thread for awhile...but I thought a glance at reconstructionism relevant to the thread's theme. (I'm glad you mentioned it Annie.)Reconstructionism is the worst kind of "worldly"...worldly things dressed up as church.

Blessings Annie,

MC


_________________
Mike Compton

 2005/10/4 23:27Profile









 Re:

Wow brother Compton, you just brought tears to my eyes, literally.

You're the first person I've met so far, that actually "researched" something thrown out in one my overactive postings. I'm dumb-founded right now.

If I could stand up and type, I'd actually stand and salute you brother, for doing this.
Thank you and God 'Bless' you.

I'm actually speechless. I know, that's a "Surprise" ... ha.

 2005/10/4 23:51
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Ahh Annie,

You are too generous. I just was curious to know what you knew!

You are a blessing dear sister.

MC


_________________
Mike Compton

 2005/10/5 1:32Profile
Christisking
Member



Joined: 2005/7/20
Posts: 672
Los Angeles, California

 Re:

Sorry if this is taking us backwards in the discussion, but I need time to catch up and felt this was important to brother Compton's earlier post. Also - This has been a great discussion - Thank you Compton for the many comments and insights - you are a wise man. 8-)

Boy - you guys type quicker then I can read. This is a comment on Compton’s post ”Babylon and the Cross” on page four which was written in response to the folowing quote from me -

“But if I am correct and America is the Babylon talked and described in Rev 17&18 and God destroys this great enemy of the Cross we should absolute praise God for her destruction. I don’t care who it is, be it America, The European Union, Mexico, China, Canada, RCC or whoever, we should rejoice with angels in heaven over her destruction. I would warn anyone that whoever it is don’t weep over her destruction, but praise God for His justice and judgment.”

I would have to say that I agree with GrannieAnnie and more importantly Rev 18:20

Quote:
“It doesn't sound, in those chpts that God is too pleased with Babylon and says in Rev 18:20 "Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her."

So it doesn't appear that the poster was being unmerciful here and if we say Rev 18:20 is not our sentiments, then are we saying we are more merciful or holier than God, in a way?

So no matter what place Babylon may be, then we have to look at Rev 18 and then 18:20 and try to get the mind of Christ, as He wrote it.”

Compton, your comments are inspiring and thought provoking but in conflict and opposition to Rev. 18:20 (the Word, Will, and Heart of God)

With that being said your comments remind me of the following:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

--O my soul, my soul! I am pained in my very heart! My heart makes a noise in me; I cannot hold my peace, Because you have heard, O my soul, The sound of the trumpet, The alarm of war. Destruction upon destruction is cried, For the whole land is plundered. Suddenly my tents are plundered, And my curtains in a moment. How long will I see the standard, And hear the sound of the trumpet? “ For My people are foolish, They have not known Me. They are silly children, And they have no understanding. They are wise to do evil, But to do good they have no knowledge.”

--Righteous are You, O LORD, when I plead with You; Yet let me talk with You about Your judgments. Why does the way of the wicked prosper? Why are those happy who deal so treacherously? You have planted them, yes, they have taken root; They grow, yes, they bear fruit. You are near in their mouth But far from their mind. But You, O LORD, know me; You have seen me, And You have tested my heart toward You. Pull them out like sheep for the slaughter, And prepare them for the day of slaughter. How long will the land mourn, And the herbs of every field wither? The beasts and birds are consumed, For the wickedness of those who dwell there, Because they said, “He will not see our final end.”

The LORD Answers

“ If you have run with the footmen, and they have wearied you, Then how can you contend with horses? And if in the land of peace, In which you trusted, they wearied you,
Then how will you do in the floodplain of the Jordan? For even your brothers, the house of your father, Even they have dealt treacherously with you; Yes, they have called a multitude after you. Do not believe them, Even though they speak smooth words to you. “ I have forsaken My house, I have left My heritage; I have given the dearly beloved of My soul into the hand of her enemies. My heritage is to Me like a lion in the forest; It cries out against Me; Therefore I have hated it. My heritage is to Me like a speckled vulture;
The vultures all around are against her. Come, assemble all the beasts of the field, Bring them to devour! “ Many rulers have destroyed My vineyard, They have trodden My portion underfoot; They have made My pleasant portion a desolate wilderness. They have made it desolate; Desolate, it mourns to Me; The whole land is made desolate, Because no one takes it to heart. The plunderers have come On all the desolate heights in the wilderness, For the sword of the LORD shall devour From one end of the land to the other end of the land; No flesh shall have peace. They have sown wheat but reaped thorns; They have put themselves to pain but do not profit. But be ashamed of your harvest Because of the fierce anger of the LORD.”

--Then the LORD said to me, “Do not pray for this people, for their good. When they fast, I will not hear their cry; and when they offer burnt offering and grain offering, I will not accept them. But I will consume them by the sword, by the famine, and by the pestilence.” Then I said, “Ah, Lord GOD! Behold, the prophets say to them, ‘You shall not see the sword, nor shall you have famine, but I will give you assured peace in this place.’” And the LORD said to me, “The prophets prophesy lies in My name. I have not sent them, commanded them, nor spoken to them; they prophesy to you a false vision, divination, a worthless thing, and the deceit of their heart. Therefore thus says the LORD concerning the prophets who prophesy in My name, whom I did not send, and who say, ‘Sword and famine shall not be in this land’—‘By sword and famine those prophets shall be consumed! And the people to whom they prophesy shall be cast out in the streets of Jerusalem because of the famine and the sword; they will have no one to bury them—them nor their wives, their sons nor their daughters—for I will pour their wickedness on them.’ “Therefore you shall say this word to them: ‘ Let my eyes flow with tears night and day, And let them not cease; For the virgin daughter of my people Has been broken with a mighty stroke, with a very severe blow. If I go out to the field, Then behold, those slain with the sword! And if I enter the city, Then behold, those sick from famine! Yes, both prophet and priest go about in a land they do not know.’”

-- Jeremiah’s Dejection

Woe is me, my mother, That you have borne me, A man of strife and a man of contention to the whole earth! I have neither lent for interest, Nor have men lent to me for interest.
Every one of them curses me. O LORD, You know; Remember me and visit me, And take vengeance for me on my persecutors. In Your enduring patience, do not take me away. Know that for Your sake I have suffered rebuke. Your words were found, and I ate them, And Your word was to me the joy and rejoicing of my heart; For I am called by Your name, O LORD God of hosts. I did not sit in the assembly of the mockers, Nor did I rejoice; I sat alone because of Your hand, For You have filled me with indignation. Why is my pain perpetual And my wound incurable, Which refuses to be healed? Will You surely be to me like an unreliable stream, As waters that fail?

The LORD Reassures Jeremiah

Therefore thus says the LORD: “ If you return, Then I will bring you back; You shall stand before Me; If you take out the precious from the vile, You shall be as My mouth. Let them return to you, But you must not return to them. And I will make you to this people a fortified bronze wall; And they will fight against you, But they shall not prevail against you; For I am with you to save you And deliver you,” says the LORD. “ I will deliver you from the hand of the wicked, And I will redeem you from the grip of the terrible.”

Jeremiah’s Unpopular Ministry

O LORD, You induced me, and I was persuaded; You are stronger than I, and have prevailed. I am in derision daily; Everyone mocks me. For when I spoke, I cried out; I shouted, “Violence and plunder!” Because the word of the LORD was made to me A reproach and a derision daily. Then I said, “I will not make mention of Him, Nor speak anymore in His name.” But His word was in my heart like a burning fire Shut up in my bones; I was weary of holding it back, And I could not. For I heard many mocking: “ Fear on every side!” “ Report,” they say, “and we will report it!” All my acquaintances watched for my stumbling, saying,“ Perhaps he can be induced; Then we will prevail against him, And we will take our revenge on him.” But the LORD is with me as a mighty, awesome One. Therefore my persecutors will stumble, and will not prevail. They will be greatly ashamed, for they will not prosper. Their everlasting confusion will never be forgotten. But, O LORD of hosts, You who test the righteous, And see the mind and heart, Let me see Your vengeance on them; For I have pleaded my cause before You. Sing to the LORD! Praise the LORD! For He has delivered the life of the poor From the hand of evildoers. Cursed be the day in which I was born! Let the day not be blessed in which my mother bore me! Let the man be cursed Who brought news to my father, saying, “ A male child has been born to you!” Making him very glad. And let that man be like the cities Which the LORD overthrew, and did not relent; Let him hear the cry in the morning And the shouting at noon, Because he did not kill me from the womb, That my mother might have been my grave, And her womb always enlarged with me. Why did I come forth from the womb to see labor and sorrow, That my days should be consumed with shame?


--“ Behold, I am against you, O most haughty one!” says the Lord GOD of hosts; “ For your day has come, The time that I will punish you. The most proud shall stumble and fall, And no one will raise him up; I will kindle a fire in his cities, And it will devour all around him.” Therefore hear the counsel of the LORD that He has taken against Babylon,
And His purposes that He has proposed against the land of the Chaldeans: Surely the least of the flock shall draw them out; Surely He will make their dwelling place desolate with them. At the noise of the taking of Babylon The earth trembles, And the cry is heard among the nations.

--Flee from the midst of Babylon, And every one save his life! Do not be cut off in her iniquity, For this is the time of the LORD’s vengeance; He shall recompense her. Babylon was a golden cup in the LORD’s hand, That made all the earth drunk. The nations drank her wine; Therefore the nations are deranged. O you who dwell by many waters, Abundant in treasures, Your end has come, The measure of your covetousness.”
Jeremiah 4:19-22, Jeremiah 12:1-13, Jeremiah 14:11-18, Jeremiah 15:10-21, Jeremiah 50:31-32, Jeremiah 51:6-7

[b][size=medium]And Then..........[/size][/b]

[i][b][size=x-large][color=0000CC][font=Arial]the book of Lamentations[/font][/color][/size][/b][/i] :-o


_________________
Patrick Ersig

 2005/10/5 1:46Profile
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Quote:
you are a wise man.



I'm going to have to show that comment to my kids! :lol:

Thanks CIK,

As always you provide a thoughtful answer. Exchanges with you are always productive brother.

Without disagreeing with you...let me observe that I'm not sure if quoting Jeremiah's dejection and his Lamentations is a case for your perspective or if it's a case for the one I put forth. Perhaps the only way to appreciate God's heart on this issue is to embrace both perspectives...a just righteousness and a deep sorrow over man's destruction.

Bless you brother,

MC


_________________
Mike Compton

 2005/10/5 4:43Profile
Christisking
Member



Joined: 2005/7/20
Posts: 672
Los Angeles, California

 Re:

Quote:

"let me observe that I'm not sure if quoting Jeremiah's dejection and his Lamentations is a case for your perspective or if it's a case for the one I put forth."

I felt that it provided challenges, thoughts and insights into both perspectives put forth.

How we feel or view things before the wrath of falls can change (and remain the same) in certain ways after the wrath of God has come.

Although some of our thinking or feeling may remain the same, both us will most likely feel drastically different in certain areas of though and perspective ex post facto.


_________________
Patrick Ersig

 2005/10/5 10:23Profile





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