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philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Some older thoughts about [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=1040&forum=45&post_id=&refresh=Go]Babylon[/url] and its ongoing significance as a Bible symbol.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/10/2 14:20Profile
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Thanks for the link Ron. That is a truly edifying series brother.

MC


_________________
Mike Compton

 2005/10/2 15:18Profile
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re: Babylon and the Cross

Quote:
But if I am correct and America is the Babylon talked and described in Rev 17&18 and God destroys this great enemy of the Cross we should absolute praise God for her destruction. I don’t care who it is, be it America, The European Union, Mexico, China, Canada, RCC or whoever, we should rejoice with angels in heaven over her destruction. I would warn anyone that whoever it is don’t weep over her destruction, but praise God for His justice and judgment.



It's been a few days and I've given this a little more thought. The following reflections are based on implications I derived from your statements…not necessarily the implications you were thinking of when you wrote them.

On one hand I think there is something commendable about you following the course of your theology and logic to its conclusion...regardless of where it takes you.

Yet, often when I am following a map to a destination in my car and end up in a dead-end street rather then the place I intended, I can only assume I have misread the map. Accordingly, I have tried to arrive at this destination you have described and in all honesty have concluded that you must have misread your map.

To be fair, your conclusions come somewhat close to Augustine’s epitaph for Rome The City of God. Yet, in this masterpiece, which explains to the world why Rome crumbled and why Christianity will prevail, there are already the seeds of western Christendom that you loathe, preserved in conservative American Christianity. (For example, consider the honest conclusion...if men are tortured for breaking men’s' laws, how much more justified it is that they are tortured for breaking God's laws.)

1500 years later, Bonhoeffer tried to understand the Christians’ responsibility living in the so-called Third Reich, which certainly showed itself to be a manifestation of “Babylon". I think his attempts to wrestle with being a German and a Christian produced some very interesting thoughts, a few brilliant and a few which are dark and conflicted. Perhaps it was during his participation in a plot to murder Hitler that he arrived at the pragmatic formula "It is better to do evil, then to be evil." (That's quite a loophole!) Yet, not even Bonhoeffer, as outspoken as he was against his government, wanted to see Germany destroyed…defeated perhaps, but not destroyed.

Likewise in America, we see manifestations of the world system in full display. Certainly, if evil could be “destroyed” then we would have great reason to rejoice. Yet, this is on the other side of the canyon from looking forward to the destruction of a country. In my own heart, for me to begin with a gospel of wanting to see Christ established in the nations, and arriving at a gospel of wanting to see Christ destroying the nations is an inversion of startling proportions. True, Jesus will one day judge this planet…but I see no invitation for me to sit with Him on that rainbow, even in my heart, and cheer His dreadful work. In fact, I feel that to mentally leap forward to the day of His judgment, to empathize with the Christ that brings fire, skips me out of my present call to pick up my cross.

We know that one vital aspect of the cross is that it demonstrates the outpouring of God’s wrath. Yet, as we claim our own cross, let’s not miss the specific nature of the wrath that was upon it…it was for intercession and not projection. This is the fundamental difficulty I have in feeling satisfaction in the destruction of America. The cross of Christ absorbs death away from others...which is a far cry from our religous cross which radiates death outward and away from itself. In an age of individual spirituality the intercessory spirituality of the cross is all but forgotten. Can we, a self-help people, understand the death that Jesus suffered for us; that to share His cross is not to save ourselves while pronouncing death on others? If I accept the cross, aren’t I hoping to die for others for Christ’s sake? So, if I am to be given over to intercession, I cannot rejoice over the destruction of America.

All of this is not to mitigate the fear of God or to squelch the message of repentance. Nor am I saying that God does not raise and sink nations for His purposes. I am only saying that I cannot make room for rejoicing over the destruction of America in my heart, and at the same time claim to be filled with the Spirit of God that would lay down His own life for the life of others.

Blessings,

MC


_________________
Mike Compton

 2005/10/4 1:40Profile









 Re:

Hia Compton.

Whoever you quoted from said ""be it America, The European Union, Mexico, China, Canada, RCC or whoever""


I think the poster was leaving a door open here, as to who Babylon may be.

Now, Some Christians feel, Babylon "is" in Iraq, and are right now on the radio, "rejoicing" over what we are doing over there and get pretty excited over the whole thing, even from the beginning, when it was heavy duty war.

So, if Babylon is in Iraq, is it alright for them to "rejoice" ?

If America is the tool that destroys Babylon {Iraq}, as many believe, is that alright ... considering the description that GOD gives Babylon in Rev.17 and 18 ?

It doesn't sound, in those chpts that God is too pleased with Babylon and says in Rev 18:20 "Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her."

So it doesn't appear that the poster was being unmerciful here and if we say Rev 18:20 is not our sentiments, then are we saying we are more merciful or holier than God, in a way ?


So no matter what place Babylon may be, then we have to look at Rev 18 and then 18:20 and try to get the mind of Christ, as He wrote it.



Thanks for the ear brother.


 2005/10/4 3:22
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4779


 Re:

Hi Compton...!

I found your post quite interesting.

Every time that I read through the various posts in this thread (or in other [i]Babylon[/i] threads), I am reminded about Jonah. Jonah was sent to tell the people that Ninevah was going to be destroyed. Even though the Word from God was final -- it did not mean that God would not relent. Indeed, God did relent. The people repented. You might say that Ninevah experienced a "revival" of sorts. The entire nation repented in sackcloth and ashes. So God did not do what He said he would do. But Jonah was not happy. In fact, he grew angry at God! He told the Lord, "...for I knew that thou art a gracious God, and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repentest thee of the evil" (Jonah 4:2).

We all know what happened. Jonah found a place outside of the city so that he could watch and see what was going to happen. He even built himself a shelter to keep himself cool. But the sun grew hot. So God planted a vine (gourd) for Jonah to provide some shade for his head. Unfortunately, the next morning, a worm ate the vine and it withered. God then provided a hot wind and a hot sun to make things uncomfortable for Jonah. Jonah became so angry -- he wanted to die!

God asked Jonah, "Doest thou well to be angry for the gourd?" Jonah again told God that he wanted to die! And then the Lord told Jonah, "Thou hast had pity on the gourd, for the which thou hast not laboured, neither madest it grow; which came up in a night, and perished in a night: And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle?" (Jonah 4:10-11).

The point is this: Sometimes, Christians seem to almost [i]delight[/i] in the death or destruction of the wicked. But that is not the heart of God. Yes, we should preach the truth. Yes, we should tell others the Word that God has instructed us. But do we not remember that God does not delight in the death of anyone? He is not willing that [u]anyone[/u] should perish -- but that [u]all[/u] should come into repentance.

America might very well be the Babylon found in the book of Revelation. There are many references that indicate that it could be. No nation has contained the wealth and prosperity as America has enjoyed (although some historians might argue that it is unfair judging current standards of wealth with say, the Roman Empire). But today, America is indeed both the greatest importing and exporting nation on the Earth.

But then again, there are some references in Revelation chapter 18 that seem to indicate that passage is not referring to America -- at least in its present state. For instance, verse 24 states that "...in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth." Can the United States of America (about 229 years old) be responsible for the death of all believers since the beginning of the Church (nearly 2000 years ago)?

Through history, many Bible scholars have interpreted this passage to mean different things. Some have stated implicitly that this refers to Rome -- or specifically, the Vatican (the "city of seven hills" in Revelation 17:9). Interpretation of that passage has been about as varied as views of who the anti-Christ will be. [i]Babylon[/i] has been interpreted to be everything from the actual physical city of Babylon (in Iraq), the Roman Catholic Church, Mecca, the United Nations, London, Berlin, New York (like Brother Wilkerson believes), and of course, America. Some believe that it is more of a spiritual system -- a true rich, modern, harlot Church. Others have argued that it is religious pride and hypocrisy -- where throughout history, some believe that they have done God a favor by killing true believers.

What if Babylon [u]is[/u] America? Should we stop believing for a move of God? Should we just close our Bibles, sell the house, buy a plane ticket for Jerusalem so that we can "[i]Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues[/i]" (Revelation 18:4)? Or should we stay here and preach?

Perhaps America is Babylon. But perhaps it is not the America of today. Pre-trib Christians usually believe that the events of Revelation 17-18 will take place [i]after[/i] the Rapture. But suppose that the post-trib people are correct. Does that mean that these events are both [i]inevitable[/i] and [i]imminent[/i], and we should thus give up? Or is it possible that there is still hope for America?

When God was about to destroy Sodom, Abraham prayed and asked God, "Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?" (Genesis 18:24). Abraham asked God about the extent of his mercy. The number of righteous individuals it would take for God to spare the entire city went from 50, to 45, to 40, to 30, to 20 and then finally, to 10 (Genesis 18:28-32). Unfortunately, God could not find ten righteous in the city. There was only Lott and his family (but it could be argued that not even Lott was righteous -- as was found in the next chapter). But the point is that God has [u]not[/u] changed. His willingness to spare the righteous is just as great today as it was then. Why? Because God is [i]just[/i] -- a good judge. He will not punish the righteous along with the wicked.

Will believers be here during the [i]great tribulation[/i]? I don't know. Keith Green once said, "[i]Pray for pre-trib, but prepare for post-trib[/i]." But one thing is for certain -- God will "...keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth" (Revelation 3:10). Whether that means we will be here (on Earth) or there, it doesn't matter. We will be in his eye. Remember -- [i]his eye is on the sparrow[/i].

Until then, I suggest that we continue to preach the Word with utmost compassion -- seeing the lost (even in America or Babylon) as being "[i]sheep without a Shepherd[/i]."

Maranatha!

:-)


_________________
Christopher

 2005/10/4 4:06Profile









 Re: You've been lied to

Annie, I'm so glad you've put this into words. I am [i][b]incredulous[/b][/i]! Surely this is the mind of the flesh speaking?

Quote:
If America is the tool that destroys Babylon {Iraq}, [b]as many believe[/b], is that alright ... considering the description that GOD gives Babylon in Rev.17 and 18 ?

They do? You mean this subplot has been ticking along for all these months and we aren't [i]more[/i] worried about it? ***[b]H~~e~~l~~p[/b]***

 2005/10/4 4:07









 Re: You've been lied to

[size=small][b]The cross of Christ absorbs death away from others... [/b][/size]This is a great sentence, Compton!!

Quote:
In my own heart, for me to begin with a gospel of wanting to see Christ established in the nations, and arriving at a gospel of wanting to see Christ destroying the nations is an inversion of startling proportions.

It would seem that anyone who was rooting for destruction, has confused their role with Christ's as Judge.

Quote:
.. our religous cross ... radiates death outward and away from itself.

Could you explain this statement for me, please?

Quote:
In an age of individual spirituality [b][i]the intercessory spirituality of the cross[/i][/b] is all but forgotten. Can we, a self-help people, understand the death that Jesus suffered for us; that [b]to share His cross is [u]not[/u] to save ourselves[/b] while pronouncing death on others? If I accept the cross, aren’t I hoping to die for others for Christ’s sake?

This sounds like John 15 in action to me.

Can anyone else say 'Amen'?

 2005/10/4 4:23









 Re:

It's funny, but as soon as someone says something that someone doesn't agree with or know about, they automatically accuse or insinuate that the others "no longer are evangelizing, etc. etc. etc." or not working while it is yet day.
I've heard that accusation or insinuation thrown at post-trib folks etc. more times than I can tell you.


Most of the folks that I know are both Post-Trib and feel they know who/what Babylon is, and are the busiest people for Christ that I know, because they know, that we, of all people, are most accountable to God, for all that He's given us and that time is short, so they're in full speed ahead in His Work.
They could care less if they lose it all for Him.
And may I say, they also are probably the bravest, as Corrie Ten Boom has said.

Twenty years ago, eschatological ignorance was understandable ,,, but now it's inexcusable. :(

They also hear from God, because they don't trust their own flesh or their own minds to "go figure". They take God at His Word and don't try to read things into it that it doesn't say.
And know when to use literal interpretation and when and where it's symbolic. Because they love not the world neither the Things in it.

For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

But yet they HAVE come out of her, so they don't receive of her sins or plagues.

Some are too far entrenched to ever come out. Some are thrilled to work for her and don't want to let go of whatever profits they're acquiring from her. Ho-hum.


I say, if this sounds rough, read your own words.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Dorcas, I thank God for your sense of humor.
Amen. Mine got lost for a minute there.

Anyhowz, Yes, that is on the radio. I'm ashamed to say, that is so. I hear it on certain 'christian' programs and don't know whether to cry or get angry.

Now how Rev. 17 & 18 fit Iraq, I'll never know. :-?

Anyhow, thanks for the laugh.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

In addition to my post above, of Rev 18:20 "Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her."

I forgot these other verses.

Rev 19:1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honor, and power, unto the Lord our God:
Rev 19:2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
Rev 19:3 And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up forever and ever.
Rev 19:4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshiped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.


More rejoicing ? Ah Oh, can we count in these total of 5 verses now, how many are rejoicing at God's eternal destruction of Babylon ?


Naughty-naughty bunch, aren't they ? ;-)


Good nite youse guys. TTYL and still love ya's.
8-)

 2005/10/4 6:05
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re: Intercessory Spirituality...hope for the hopeless

Quote:
Could you explain this statement for me, please?

"In an age of individual spirituality the intercessory spirituality of the cross is all but forgotten. Can we, a self-help people, understand the death that Jesus suffered for us; that to share His cross is not to save ourselves while pronouncing death on others? If I accept the cross, aren’t I hoping to die for others for Christ’s sake?"



I must admit that I am somewhat in over my head here, but I cannot help but come to the conclusion that we have emphasized personal responsibility to the point of losing interest in others. Let me prattle a little in general terms.

Personally, when I say that we must find the “intercessory spirituality” of the cross, I am groping in the dark to find a way to express that we can not give up hope for this Earth…until it’s appointed time. Now I realize this cuts across the apocalyptic grain of the church…but consider that this may be the very point of the powerlessness we loathe in ourselves. we have dismissed the very world that we profess to bring the Gospel to. If heaven were a DVD movie, we would be pressing the remote right now, skipping chapters and going to the triumphant finale. Maybe we aren’t as comfortable with the Gospels’ plot as we claim.

19th Century humanism depicted man as Prometheus striding and conquering his own problems. Christians fundamentally reacted against this appalling arrogance and reminded man of his humility and weakness before a holy and sovereign God. Fair enough, but mankind has by and large moved beyond 19th century hubris. Yet we continue to pursue the individual holiness message of our forefathers, when what we need a concept of community holiness...a dying not to self but to each other...this begins with hope. Typecasting man as proudly partying his way to hell makes for fiery preaching but it is somewhat askew and incomplete of the full picture. In reality the planet’s people are meditating in fear as evidenced by a global surge away from rationality towards irrational forms of spirituality. Preach repentance yes…but not just from over-confidence and pride. Repent from apathy and pessimism that excuses giving up.

Mankind is no longer striding…he is hiding. Each one of us, saved and unsaved, is tempted to retreat back into ourselves and focus on personal maintenance…having accepted that economies will crash, people will die, cities will burn, and that the law of entropy must prevail. We are told to accept these horrible realties, which become a source of great conflict when we have children.

In this aspect the Church is no different. This is the very point where we must rise to the occasion. Let’s not think that predicting inevitable disasters like stock market crashes, oil shortages, wars, and famines makes us prophetic. I was learning about that stuff 20 years ago from secular professors in college. Truly prophetic people would continue to have hope for Homo sapiens right down to the last toenail and hair follicle.

We Christians may be spiritual beings, but for now remain hairy bipeds sharing in humanity, breeding our share of it’s children, debt, hunger, and disease. Perhaps it is only as hairy breeding bipeds following a Homo Sapien Jesus with dirty feet, and not as glorified saints in white robes adoring Jesus in the heavenlies, that we can truly have fellowship with Christ.

"Rev 19:1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honor, and power, unto the Lord our God:
Rev 19:2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand."

These are profound verses but their perspective is entirely future and in another realm. Consider how dreadful they sound if we subtly alter the wording…

"And after Katrina I heard a great voice of much people in the local church, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honor, and power, unto the Lord our God: For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand."

Like I said, I am somewhat in over my head on this topic. It just eems to me that rejoicing on Earth over the burning of Babylon, whether this is America or Iraq, makes us unworthy to rejoice in heaven.

These are just my current thoughts brothers and sisters,

MC



_________________
Mike Compton

 2005/10/4 14:27Profile









 Re:

Hi brother Compton,

I read your post here and yes, we are all 'over our heads' in this.

Eschatology is bittersweet. We are told, that He is returning for those "who love His appearing", in other words, we are all but commanded to "long for His appearing", {"Even so, Come Lord Jesus", is Bible} yet, on our human side .... I have unsaved family and two new grandbabies. I only have one daughter, who I love desperately and I'm not 'sure' if she's saved, and my entire immediate family aren't saved, and I have a burden for souls, and that's why home-missions was my life choice for ministry ........ but with these prophetic verses, I have tears and say, "Lord, No Matter What, YOU ARE GOOD."

Another thing is, I love animals and nature, so I'm not looking forward AT ALL to the Disasters mentioned in Revelation.

I was one of those, when it came to Katrina, that didn't want to hear that it is judgment necessarily .... so I'm more hesitant than most to say that it was.

The only thing I've read that 'may' have made sense, is something I only heard yesterday ... was what Anne Graham Lotz said.....

""I believe God is deeply saddened by this, just as we are, but for years we've been telling God to get out of our schools, to get out of our government and to get out of our lives.
And being the gentleman He is, I believe He has calmly backed out. How can we expect God to give us His blessing and His protection if we demand He leave us alone?""


I'm also one who is against this war, because I love people .... yet I get attacked by Christians for feeling 'that' way too.

Since I was a kid, I loved taking care of people and sick people ... so 'any' judgment on 'anyone' hurts me to no end.
I prayed for Jeffrey Dommer to get saved (I guess they 'say' he did). :-? Even prayed for Clinton ... ha.

So, to "long for His appearing" is a bittersweet thing indeed, yet we are to long for His appearing, Scripturally.

The main thing, is to 'not go beyond what is written'. And God had to 'reprove' me for coming close to "having more compassion than He does". Ouch !

Those verses I gave, about the rejoicing over Babylon's demise, ARE future tense, and I believe 'by then', we may be closer to having the mind of Christ to understand their/our rejoicing, when the time comes.
Right now, none of us are prepared for that, but it's not time yet and Katrina has nothing whatsoever to do with the destruction of Rev. 18, so you cannot compare the two, Scripturally.


Love you Brother.

Annie

 2005/10/4 15:15





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