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Christisking
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Joined: 2005/7/20
Posts: 672
Los Angeles, California

 Re:


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Quote:
I have come to believe, that if we are indeed seeing the last days, then there will be one fundamental way to distinguish the true church from the apsotate. The faithful remnant, even in Babylon, will forsake the Theology of Glory and rediscover the Theology of the Cross...
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Amen MC!!! On this we can agree!!!


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Patrick Ersig

 2005/9/29 21:14Profile
baruch_48
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Joined: 2005/5/31
Posts: 78


 Re: the answer to Babylon

the adjunct to all this talk of 'Babylon', which is important & necessary ... but leaves us dry, if we don't [i]go on[/i] - from the kingdom of Confusion to the Kingdom of Purity - Zion

... is the way Christians can avoid, even here, on this discussion board .... bearing the [i]fruits[/i] of Babylon ( which is discord, confusion, enmity, strife, angst, [b]death[/b] )

a speaker whose text sermons are here on Sermon Index, but not his audios - Lance Lambert ... preaches strongly on Christians letting go of their rights within the Assembly ( along the truths of the Unity in the Spirit [ eph 4/john 17 ] & the esteeming others more than ourselves in love & humbling ourselves to serve one another [ phil. 2:6-9 / john 13 ] )

two sermons he gave in 2003 really hit home to me as the answer to all the squabbles we have ( on discussion boards, or in person )

you can find them here:[url=http://www.christiantapeministry.com]christian tape ministry[/url]

in the upper right hand box type in "Lambert" .. you'll see 115 links to choose from of his stuff there ... click DATE DELIVERED to organize them chronologically ...... and then type in [b]page 14[/b] at the bottom right

the sermons are [b]Deny Yourself and Take Up The Cross[/b]

and

[b]Make Love Your Aim[/b]


This is about discipleship, folks - loving one another in true unity in the church ...

all the rest is babylon

 2005/9/29 21:14Profile
baruch_48
Member



Joined: 2005/5/31
Posts: 78


 Re:

Quote:
forsake the Theology of Glory and rediscover the Theology of the Cross...



amen brother

if anyone is guilty in the 'flow of history' - it is Constantine ... as far as being a "glory hound" rather than a Cross-seeker

but he was just a tool of satan's deception that the Lord has allowed ... in the Grand Sovereign Plan --- towards the centuries long culmination in Final Babylon

 2005/9/29 21:19Profile









 Re: You've Been Lied To

To coin a term from Francis Schaefer; what will be the determining factor in the end, of true Christian and not, is "True Truth".


It will be for 'Truth', that we are beheaded.

That's all.

 2005/9/29 21:28
baruch_48
Member



Joined: 2005/5/31
Posts: 78


 Re:

from christisking:

Quote:
“The mother of all whores” - “Babylon The Great” that described about in Rev 17 and 18. This has not been around since Babylon, but these Scriptures are making reference to a SPECIFIC country, nation, system, or organization during a SPECIFIC time period. (the end times)




Can I say something here ? "spiritual Babylon" is what we ought key on

It was 'around' longer than physical Babylon in the ancient world

in [b]"her"[/b] [ spiritual babylon ] - was found the blood of [b]prophets[/b] and of the [b]saints[/b] - [size=x-small][u]and all who have been killed on the earth[/u][/size]
( the very end of Rev. 18)


let's break that verse down:


[b]prophets[/b] - this includes what Hebrews 12:24 and Jude 11 are speaking to ( the slaying of Abel by Cain ) - as prophetic of the shed blood of our Lord Jesus Christ . .


. . [size=large][ [/size]After Abel, Nimrod is the next most important figure in "Babylon"s history of Triumphalist death dealing & building cities where [u]death[/u] stalks the streets ( Gen 10:9-10 / Gen 11:3-4 )[size=large] ][/size]




Spiritual babylon includes the blood of Abel ... [u]and all other "[b]saints[/b]" mentioned in Rev 18:24, in the Old Test. period & in the 2000 years since the cross[/u]




[i]Triumphalist christianity[/i] has taken the [u]'way of Cain'[/u] ( jude 11) throughout the ages, slaying, rather than being slain

[b]Remnant Christians[/b] have been slain by the System all throughout medieval times, and then of course, in the protestant ref. period



Christ is the ultimate "remnant Christian" - if I can say that




it's clear if you let Rev 18:24 speak to you ( rather than you try and 'fit' it into a way of trying to 'categorize' Babylon into a single "thing" or "entity" .... ) ... that America, or Rome, or ancient Babylon .. or any geographical locus cannot be what's referred to

it must include [u]all the blood shed of anyone ( even heathen in south america under the Incan blood ritual sacrifices or Joe Blow being murdered on the streets of Tacoma Washington or Zulus by the British in south africa under 19th Cent. Colonialism )[/u] ...



this is Spiritual Babylon

all-encompassing, beyond physicality

it is the [b]Kingdom of Death[/b] on earth - everywhere

 2005/9/29 21:30Profile
Christisking
Member



Joined: 2005/7/20
Posts: 672
Los Angeles, California

 Re:

Brother baruch_48,

I understand what you are saying brother and agree with what you are proposing concerning spiritual Babylon. I could be wrong, but I think the destruction described in Rev 18 is talking about a SPECIFIC place. Do you disagree? Do you think spiritual and economic Babylon are one in the same? Or do you separate them?


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Patrick Ersig

 2005/9/29 21:48Profile
Christisking
Member



Joined: 2005/7/20
Posts: 672
Los Angeles, California

 Re:

Compton,

Please let me answer a few of the good questions you posed.

First of all,

Question 1-
Quote:
“America is unique in this aspect? I think you pretty much described mankind here.”

Answer-
Yes and no. You are correct my friend in your statement that this is a description of mankind as a whole. But when we look at two major systems of man (political and economic) we must admit that the Democratic and Capitalist systems are more dependant upon and shamelessly promote humanism, greed, selfishness, and pride among it’s citizen then any other political or economic system. This is how America (and it’s western counterparts) stands out in this matter of humanism, greed, selfishness, and pride. I am not saying that we should try to become a Socialistic Monarchy. We should not be concerned with such things and let God work out the earthly kingdoms and focus ourselves on His heavenly kingdom. I am not concerned with America and its political and economic systems or changing them - if God wants Americas political and/or economic systems to fall, they will fall, if God wants them to stand, they will stand - I am just pointing out some facts about them, sin and how they relate to America being the “Mother of all Whores” “Babylon the Great”

Question 2-
Quote:
if America is the revival of Babylon in Revelation...then why preach repentance? Can prophecy be broken?

Answer-
We should always preach repentance regardless of our interpretation of prophesy . Just because God has for told coming destruction and annihilation does not mean we shouldn’t preach for people to turn from their sins and be reconciled to God. This is actually a very good and Biblical reason to preach repentance. We see this as an example over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over again throughout Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel and right through the end of the Old Testament. In fact, we are told that if we see the wrath of God coming and refuse to sound the alarm and warn others to flee the wrath to come, we will show up on Judgment day with the blood of others on our hands. We should warn people of Gods anger fury and wrath that is about to strike America. We are not to be concerned with whether people listen or not. Most of them are under strong delusion sent by God Himself. Does this mean we should not preach to them - a thousand times NO - but we should expect that they will not listen. We are to be obedient and preach repentance and the Kingdom of God. The holy Spirit will draw who He will.

Ezekiel 2
3"Son of man," he said, "I am sending you to the nation of Israel, a nation that is rebelling against me. Their ancestors have rebelled against me from the beginning, and they are still in revolt to this very day. 4They are a hard-hearted and stubborn people. But I am sending you to say to them, `This is what the Sovereign LORD says!' 5And whether they listen or not--for remember, they are rebels--at least they will know they have had a prophet among them.
6"Son of man, do not fear them. Don't be afraid even though their threats are sharp as thorns and barbed like briers, and they sting like scorpions. Do not be dismayed by their dark scowls. For remember, they are rebels! 7You must give them my messages whether they listen or not. But they won't listen, for they are completely rebellious!

Jeremiah 6
10To whom can I give warning? Who will listen when I speak? Their ears are closed, and they cannot hear. They scorn the word of the LORD. They don't want to listen at all. 11So now I am filled with the LORD's fury. Yes, I am weary of holding it in! ... 16So now the LORD says, "Stop right where you are! Look for the old, godly way, and walk in it. Travel its path, and you will find rest for your souls. But you reply, `No, that's not the road we want!' 17I set watchmen over you who said, `Listen for the sound of the trumpet!' But you replied, `No! We won't pay attention!'

Question 3-
Quote:
Why not pray for the annihilation of America? Wouldn't that be praying according to God's will?

Answer-
We should always pray that Gods will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven. Since we don’t know exactly what Gods will is in every or any situation, we should always pray His will be done. The Bible says God will send them strong delusion. Does this mean we should pray for God send strong delusion on our churches instead of praying for revival of our churches. NO. What I am trying to say is that we should pray for the will of God on earth as it is in heaven regardless of what His will is. Whether His will is to send strong deletion or revival or destruction or deliverance, we should pray for His will. We should always pray for Gods will be done - not what we think He should do or want Him to do. Your will God - not my own - no matter what that will is. That’s how Jesus prayed - that’s how Jesus taught us to pray - that is how we should pray also.

Question 4-
Quote:
“If America is the great harlot, we should not weep with those merchants...we should rejoice over her destruction.”

Answer-
This is absolutely 110% correct. I am not saying I know for sure, just pointing out some very strong possibilities I feel the Lord has shown me. But if I am correct and America is the Babylon talked and described in Rev 17&18 and God destroys this great enemy of the Cross we should absolute praise God for her destruction. I don’t care who it is, be it America, The European Union, Mexico, China, Canada, RCC or whoever, we should rejoice with angels in heaven over her destruction. I would warn anyone that whoever it is don’t weep over her destruction, but praise God for His justice and judgment. The angels in heaven will be rejoicing and praising God - the merchants of the earth will be weeping and mourning. You can be with one of the two groups - the angels of heaven - or the merchants of the earth. I can guarantee you if it is America or someone else I will be with the angels of heaven rejoicing and praising God for His justice and judgment. What group will you be with? :-o


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Patrick Ersig

 2005/9/29 22:21Profile
Compton
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Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Patrick,

Thanks brother for your thoughtful answers. I should reflect on them before commenting...

I am interested in Baruch's answer to your question...I do want to offer that this topic would be much less volatile if we discussed the attributes of Babylon as a counterfiet to God's kingdom before giving it another name. There is nothing to lose...

Perhaps all of us in this thread can agree that having a clear biblical understanding of "Babylon" is more important then the normal eschatological conspiracy speculation that is cluterring our hearts and minds. This discussion is about separating the world system out of the Church. We see Jesus coming to His church with the Sword of His Word to cut fat from bone...to divide the world from the Church right through our own hearts. This is a discussion about the heart of Christianity as Jesus and the apostles meant to convey the Gospel to this dark world.

As soon as we clutter our meditation on this topic with all sorts of urban myths and sneaking suspicions about microchip implants and Christian concentration camps...well we can't tell rumors from truth. The whole discussion collapses into fretting and hand wringing.

What all of us are yearning for is to see the Church begin to resemble the authentic counter-worldly light she was meant to be. The true church is more then martrys getting their heads chopped off by the anti-christ---We are a beatitude people, who are familiar with the cross before we ever see death.

...and as Andrew mounted the hill seeing his cross before him he cried out loud enough to be heard by onlookers...

"Most welcome cross, I come to you. I have known you in life, and now in death. I have always loved you, through glory or disgrace."

MC


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Mike Compton

 2005/9/29 22:22Profile
Christisking
Member



Joined: 2005/7/20
Posts: 672
Los Angeles, California

 Re:

Amen MC! Very well put!! I agree 100%!!! We probably agree on more than we disagree on.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Quote:
“I do want to offer that this topic would be much less volatile”
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If I ever come across as volatile or augmentative in this thread or any other thread, I sincerely apologize. For I can assure you that this is not my intent or heart in way shape or form. I do wish to have a polite and sometimes spirited discussion, but I am not trying to prove my own point of view correct in a contentious manner. I know very well I may be wrong, but I wish to share what I feel the Lord has shown me and what my current understanding is at this point in my walk with Christ and knowledge of the Scriptures.


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Patrick Ersig

 2005/9/29 22:52Profile
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Patrick, I mentioned I might give you some comments on your thoughtful reply to my questions. In the end, I see the substance and validity of your perspective. You have given me much to think about.

This question of "apocalypse" has been a compelling one to me recently. I see that the perplexing fascination with end of this world is really rooted in the blessed hope of Jesus' return. I guess I've always known this. Still I feel it healthy to test this fascination from time to time...to make sure that an anticipation for the end times is not rooted in angst or phobia, which are common symptoms of our age.

Also, before this thread floats to the bottom of the thread ocean, I wanted to tie off my comments about the "Theology of the Cross." I feel this phrase could become a buzzword in future days...what kind of buzzword I'm not quite sure.

For my own part, I trace the phrase back to Luther’s 95 theses, seizing upon it as an expression of holding fast to authentic Christianity. I know there are others, outside of SI, who could seize upon this very same phrase for more liberal purposes, as a way of shaming all of Christendom...not just the bad but also all of it.

Years from now...if someone should happen across this thread, know this: when I said that we hope to "rediscover the Theology of the Cross" I wasn’t trying to establish some new vogue post modern liberal counter culture theology. I was simply meaning that we would gladly lay down our own scholarly opinions, our "theology of glory" in order to share in Christ's mind and heart. All of our theological wrangling is not to establish dominant orthodoxy, consensus or “answers.”

We long to show this raging world that there is a peculiar sanctuary offered to those who are overwrought by their own evil and disobedience to God: a death to self and a new life in Christ Jesus known as the Gospel.

God’s blessings to all the brothers and sisters here at Sermon Index.

Mike Compton


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Mike Compton

 2005/10/2 13:04Profile





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