Los Angeles, California
I agree that the Babylon of Rev 17 and 18 seem like two different entities, and am willing to admit that this very well may be the case. I have always thought this to be the case in the past focusing on the RCC instead of the apostate condition of the Western christian church as the Babylon of Rev 17.
I think we can all agree that there is a great probability that the Babylon of Rev 18 refers to America and certainly not the RCC. But over the past year I feel that the Lord has been really showing me how these two Babylons are actually one in the same. I can easily see how America could be the revived Roman Empire when you compare the history of both. America mimics the Roman Empire in power, society, might, culture, politics, and economics in many ways. A thorough study of the history of both Empires bears this out. I did a term paper in collage comparing and contrasting the two Empires (American and Roman) the similarities are startling and numerous. But, I was always confused about how the verse drunk on the blood of the believers fit in with America. I believe that the Lord gave me the answer. Have you ever wondered - where are all the prophets today? Or Where are the men of God in the churches and in this crisis hour in which we live? God said more than once you were set apart (I knew you) in your mothers womb Is it possible that these men of God and believers were aborted, murdered and their blood was spilled in the clinics of Babylon The Great? If this is true then America is truly drunk on the blood of believers - How many millions of the 43,000,000 aborted in America since 1973 would has been believers or prophets, or apostles, or teachers, or saints - only God know for sure - but certainly enough for America to be considered drunk on the blood of believers. Even if only 5% would have been saints or believers that 2.15 million believers murders in the clinics of Babylon (America)
I understand Revelation is a symbolic and tricky book to understand and interpret at times, and I understand that I may be wrong about America being the Babylon of Rev 17. (I am as sure as a man can be that America is the Babylon in Rev 18) But we might want to consider the possibility that America is both the Babylon of 17 and 18 all wrapped into one. Especially when we look at the condition of the church and America being drunk on the blood of believes and saints. Give it some thought and prayer.
I agree with both Hans and IRONMAN on the following points
The bottom line is: REPENT, REPENT, and REPENT. Return to your first love, Jesus Christ!
the bottom line is this, the hour is late and we have no time to spend arguing about this and that at the expense of repentance. we need to be in prayer, fasting, on our hands and knees confessing our sins before God and repenting, repenting, repenting.
| 2005/9/29 14:36||Profile|
| Will God let it go like that?|
Will Jesus allow His Holy Name to be misappropriated, used and sullied by those in the republican party?
I believe the answer is no.
Already, Tom DeLay has been indicted by a man he termed a partisan hack, yet of the 15 politicians indicted by the Austin DA have been democrats.
Bill Frist, another "evangelical" is under investigation for a stock sale that may be illegal, and Karl Rove has laid so low as to be undiscernable after the heat about "outing" a CIA operative for political payback....
its all about war profits, war death, lousy filthy movies and TV programs designed to be vehicles to sell stuff and junk, killing babies and calling that choice. You know what I think? the harlot is some Orwellian nightmare that the vast majority of americans are programmed and plugged into, an Orwellian nightmare where dark is termed light and everybody says, "uh huh, thats right".....save us Jesus!!! please Lord.
I thank God He has opened my eyes to my own sin and unworthiness, and I thank God that He has opened my eyes to the spiritual emptiness and wasteland of the "American Way of life".
I beg forgiveness if I anger anybody by what I say, these are the revelations of my own heart and mind, that I desire to share.
| 2005/9/29 15:17|
| Re: You've been lied to|
I just gave a possible interpretation. There are a couple of them out there. This is what came to me after preparing for Bible studies, but I would certainly not stake my life on it. Your take on this may very well be better when you consider the next paragraph:
What I do know is that when I got the word that Babylon would burn in the spring of 2001, I was convinced that it was Rome. When 9/11 occurred, in conjunction with the aircraft, I realized that my interpretation of Babylon in this case was wrong, that it was New York.
I agree with Neilgin1, even though I am not as up on American politics as you all are, America is in big trouble, unless the Church can get together, repent, and go before God to plead for mercy.
| 2005/9/29 15:41||Profile|
| Re: You've Been Lied To|
baruch's title to this thread has said it well.
The thing is, is that we have been lied to, for hundreds of years now about this country.
We believe our history books and the news.
That's the sad part.
And as far as not responsible for what goes on in other countries, in the death of Christians, once again, you'd really have to know how our politics have really played a part from the git-go. Who allowed China to go communist, or helped support Hitler, and back from there ,,, back to the beginning of international meddling.
And the future for the rest of us Christians is yet to be seen. It's not over yet, so don't throw out chpt. 17.
Right now, Christians are being killed in nations that we have make our flags, etc..
She's a religious system, (we sure are - the leader in that) a political system (we are and reach around the globe) an industrial nation (we're the tops), she rides the beast (the UN is in NY), she provides the beast his technology for the mark etc. (we've created every inch of it), in Jer. she makes her nest in the sky, (space tech), she'll be attacked from the north (Russia), but will rise again for a short period, then God will finish her off 'later', for good.
That's just a short one from all the verses, from Jer., Is., Ob. and Rev.. She's not just in Revelation.
We just need to get out of the system mentally, and not be dependent. And preach the Gospel while we can.
She's not totally demolished till late in Revelation.
The Plan is to bring her down, then raise her back up again ... that's a while Before God allows the complete destruction.
| 2005/9/29 16:39|
| Re: question|
The thing is, is that we have been lied to, for hundreds of years now about this country.... you'd really have to know how our politics have really played a part from the git-go. Who allowed China to go communist, or helped support Hitler...
Are you serious about this? Could you please share the rationale behind this belief?
| 2005/9/29 18:42||Profile|
| Re: babylon|
the Spirit and the Bride say "come" . .
Just for the record, [b]Westminster started drifting away[/b] more and more in 1967. We're well on the way to all religions being practised with [u]equal 'right', to Christianity[/u], including secular ones. As you say bro, " a country free to sin "
I'll have a lot more to say on this thread overall ( about who/what is babylon ... i take a broader view than some are taking here -- yes America and Rome are big [b]engines[/b] of the later Full Expression of Babylon ( which Rev 17 & 18 both are describing -- Jer. 50 & other places, as well ) )
but we need to get our eyes off "America" or "Rome", [b]solely[/b] - as That [u]Harlot[/u]
I just wanted to address Dorcas' above statement about London "drifting away in 1967" ...
To my mind, and to the point of my post .... it's not about very recent drifts ( in America or London ..... the bug-bears we moan about, especially in America --- "taking prayer out of schools" ... "taking God out of the pledge of allegiance" )
the word "God" was added into the american pledge only in the Beaver Cleaver Laodecian 1950's
and now we're moaning about it being removed by "the Liberals"
we need to realize the Founders were "Liberals" ( of their 18th Century age ) .. and their whole revolution was utterly liberal - again - for its time
they only 'used religious language' as a cultural norm .... but out of hearts of political & even religious innovation [i.e. "Liberal" ] - stirred up by the secular Enlightenment shedding abroad during that Age
[b]([/b]EDIT - The very american revolution was an utterly liberal Smashing of Conservativism of the age [b])[/b]
[size=x-small]( EDIT AGAIN [/size] - to quote Patrick/ChristIsKing -
America (and much of its western counterparts) is based on humanism, selfishness, pride and greed. This (humanism, pride, selfishness and greed) is [b]the life blood[/b] of democratic, capitalistic America. [u]If you take humanism, selfishness, pride and greed out of America the entire country and it's economic and political systems come to a screeching halt.[/u] Humanism, selfishness, pride and greed are the oil and gas that keep the satanic machine called America running. Humanism, selfishness, pride and greed is the blood that keeps the heart of America pumping.
-- I would just add my thought that all world systems are 'satanic machines' ( this goes to the thread - who or what is the god of this world ) ... & also that Patrick's explanation is a perfect description of what was a Liberal explosion in world human history, as the America machine got "pumping"
the biggest lie for evangelical christians to get over is that America was founded on [i]this[/i] - NOT JESUS, which is a childish fairytale [size=medium])[/size]
To my mind, the point is not that "we're drifting now" .... per se
The point is, the very foundations of both America and Britain --- were "[b]drifts from[/b]" THE CROSS ( if europeans could ever to have said to be fixed to the Cross in any age since the first centuries )
.. we lament the liberal 'fruit' we now reap ( such as formal lip-service prayer for children being quashed [b][ read Matt 6:5,6 - which also applies to children,[/b] not just public religious hypocrites - which most politicians have always been, since the Founding of all modern nation-states] )
( this makes me think of that thread of the children [b]crying for 'revival[/b] in America' on the FireOnTheAltar site ... religiously, hypocritically, at that young age )
America nor Britain need neither be "publicly Christian" or publicly "Rastafarian"
they're irrelevancies as to the inner life of the Realms
let 'all religions be practiced with equal right' in Laodecia
[b][size=x-small]And let the True Church rise up, in preparation of Jehovah destroying these false Laodecian forms[/size][/b]
| 2005/9/29 20:28||Profile|
but out of hearts of political & even religious innovation [i.e. "Liberal" ] - stirred up by the secular Enlightenment shedding abroad during that Age
This statement begins to take in the entire panoramic vista of mankinds unregenerate history, in a way that makes more sense to me. The thread of history is really more like a spiderweb. Ascibing all the evils of this world to America is intellectually and spiritually indefensible. The rest of mankind doesn't get off the hook that easy. Babylon has been around ever since...since the days of Babylon!
| 2005/9/29 20:48||Profile|
to take in the entire panoramic vista of mankinds unregenerate history
Good thought, brother .. and this is along the lines of my understanding as I study history ( from a crucified approach, not from the Triumphalist "Christian" approach )
"Progress" is the World's "god" ... and the technological/political/economic innovations ( that largely the American "engine" is behind in this world, today ) ... is building up that Final Tower of babel ... which anti-Christ will be at the pinnacle of
God's allowing the american revolution to happen as it did - sovereignly - is merely to full His prophecy [i] from His panoramic view[/i] of the sweep of history ..... to fulfill the conditions of the End, in which a Strong Humanistic Tower is of necessity to be there - to destroy
| 2005/9/29 20:56||Profile|
this is along the lines of my understanding as I study history ( from a crucified approach, not from the Triumphalist "Christian" approach )
A crucified approach to history instead of the triumphalist approach? Perhaps we see eye to eye afterall.
I have come to believe, that if we are indeed seeing the last days, then there will be one fundamental way to distinguish the true church from the apsotate. The faithful remnant, even in Babylon, will forsake the Theology of Glory and rediscover the Theology of the Cross...
| 2005/9/29 21:09||Profile|
Los Angeles, California
Ascribing all the evils of this world to America is intellectually and spiritually indefensible. Babylon has been around ever since...since the days of Babylon!
No one on this thread has ascribed ALL THE EVILS OF THIS WORLD to America. (some yes, but not all) This is ascribed to Satan. And Babylon in concept has been around since Babylon, yes, but this is not what I am talking about. We are talking about The mother of all whores - Babylon The Great that described about in Rev 17 and 18. This has not been around since Babylon, but these Scriptures are making reference to a SPECIFIC country, nation, system, or organization during a SPECIFIC time period. (the end times) Ascribing the characteristics of this specific country, nation, system, or church described in Rev 17 and 18 to America is both Scripturally and intellectually unavoidable. The match is almost perfect.
Not trying to come down on you Compton - just trying to clarify what I am talking about. The points you make are good and I agree with them - all the worlds evils ascribed to America is just dumb and it is true the concept and spirit of Babylon has been around since Babylon - it is just not what I am talking about. :-)
I am answering the other questions you posed earlier in the thread and should post them soon.
| 2005/9/29 21:10||Profile|