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 Re: What Kind of Counsel?

Mike, you've said a lot of real truths, here. I have a few points I'd like to pick up on, which you may or may not find helpful. Please eat what's useful encouragement and spit out the pips.

I recognise each of us has to break through alone in prayer and the Lord allows us many challenges to give us an opportunity to practise and overcome in many different scenarios.

Quote:
And that can be tricky enough as it is, the tendency is to still measure from our angle, not the Lords.

Stating this is a sign you're [i]aware[/i] there is a difference. The born again vicar of my local Anglican church, a man in his sixties (relentless evangelist) testified one Sunday morning he had known of a decision he had had to make by that day, for months. He had turned the issue over in his mind every way he could think and was still no clearer as the the right option. Then it occurred to him that he hadn't actually prayed about it, so he brought it before the Lord and within half an hour, had the answer - consisting of an option which had not crossed his mind previously. Amen.

Quote:
but I don't [i]feel[/i] like praying,

Would have to add Pray to the list.

I think you hit on an answer when you said this

Quote:
Often it is in the praise and worship that comes forth

I know you meant that in the context of having broken through into silence, so I have two questions. Have you ever tried beginning with the worship? Launching yourself out into the praise by an act of will and continuing until the Spirit catches you up? The other question is, have you ever tried getting to the place of silence from praying out loud...? I mean, by saying what's on your heart - all the thoughts and considerations - and just listen and home in on the points which the Spirit quickens to you, and keep homing in until there is that silence?

Even as I write this, it seems inconceivable to me that you have never done this, but, sometimes, if one is trying to pray while others are asleep, making a noise is not an option. Therefore, because of the benefit of hearing what your spirit is bringing through your mouth to the Lord, I'd say you [i]must[/i] find a place where you can speak out loud... - the car, the garden, a walk - all can free up the internal system. Then, by listening to what you pray in the Spirit, you are closer to working out the answer to

Quote:
The question that keeps begging for an answer is "What is it that you want?"

Your spirit in fellowship with His Spirit knows the answer.... it just needs to be communicated to your thinking brain.

Quote:
And peace, the rest from fighting against Him, against your own self, the greatest enemy there is. [b]Then it seems we can truly pray and truly intercede for others, gain a truer perspective of ourselves and a clearer understanding of the Lord[/b].

'...from the depths, [b]to be able to share and give back out of the substance of what can only come from Him. It seems an impossibility to share that which we have not received, not from a storehouse of knowledge but from the Counselor Himself[/b]. To be clear, what I have found is that getting to this place of silence will bring forth that which has already been absorbed into the spirit, the verses that come to mind, that spring up [b]after everything has been laid down[/b], not that have been sized up before hand. The [b]perception gets altered and you find you can learn something more[/b] so that you are [b]willing to learn and willing to let go, willing to see things in a different light...[/b]

Oh, could go on endlessly with this. Gain silence with the Lord, it's worth every ounce of effort.

Praise the Lord! This is all good. Myself, I'm not keen on playing worship music to 'get into the mood'. I'd rather bring my complaints to God just as they are in true David style, than waste time pretending to be 'spiritual' if something else is burning on my heart.

The Father is actually interested in the things that bother us and often, He sends the answers to them for their own sake, because they are important too, especially if they block our route to Him. One thing is sure, He is keen for us to enter His presence by the shortest route. Also, sometimes it is worth LOOKING at the obstacle and having a think about the reason it is an obstacle, instead of trying to push past it with a certain degree of denial. Just a thought.

 2005/9/23 20:48
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Wants

Quote:
Have you ever tried beginning with the worship? Launching yourself out into the praise by an act of will and continuing until the Spirit catches you up?


When it's honest, yes. But ... as a discipline to wrestle away from my own thoughts whether that may come or not.. not thinking of any particular expectations in this particular manner, just to be still.

Quote:
The other question is, have you ever tried getting to the place of silence from praying out loud...? I mean, by saying what's on your heart - all the thoughts and considerations - and just listen and home in on the points which the Spirit quickens to you, and keep homing in until there is that silence?

Surely at times, as you mentioned and generally the car, but even without the vocal chords (Difficult with others in the house at an early hour as you also mentioned) there is the unburdening of all these things and often the wonderful sense of silence that just takes over, hadn't thought of it as something to work up to and don't think that is what you are stating perhaps, but it just seems to happen... It's a little different line of thought I may have been trailing, another way would be, what of Gods silence? Just to be in His Presence.
Quote:
Your spirit in fellowship with His Spirit knows the answer.... it just needs to be communicated to your thinking brain.


Referring back to the "What is it that you want?" Was thinking out loud there maybe without clarification. It is something that will come up often in prayer. It's both a question of my own generating and would like to think from the Holy Spirit as well. It's to ask an honest question of what is it that I am seeking? This is where it may tie in with the next well said statements that Chanin brought forth. (Briefly, hesitated putting this into this thread here in the first place, would prefer it didn't distract from the areas it touched on, will try something different elsewhere)

It does come back to seeking something purely for ourselves and our self interests. That is the "Big question". Surely it varies, but often it's in asking that in an honest matter that I find I really don't "want" anything at all ...
"Wantless".
Again, tricky. There is many things I do want. I want to know Him as he in fact is. (Katz). I want to know nothing but Jesus as He is not as I might have wrongly perceived Him. I want to understand and I want for instance those here, all of us to understand so they might help me understand better and turn it around and give it right back again. But asking that question also makes one realize just what it is that matters. It isn't what's in my best interest, but what is Gods, better, what is it that He wants? Of me? Of us? And sometimes I can't help but think He would like us to just shut up and listen, :-)

That without any particular expectation, just to be in His Presence. It's quite interesting to think on that verse in Revelation...


_________________
Mike Balog

 2005/9/24 0:45Profile
crsschk
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Conviction reading

Chanin,

Again, this is so on the mark. Felt it a diservice to start taking quotables out of it. What an apt description. Sorry for the interuptions prior, hope this get's well read.
Only the title seems misleading; "Lies Women Believe: and the truth that sets them free".
Women? ;-)


_________________
Mike Balog

 2005/9/24 0:55Profile









 Re: What kind of counsel

Without doubt, Mike, what you describe here is perfect for this thread, especially the last embedded sentence.

Quote:
I want to know Him as he in fact is. (Katz). I want to know nothing but Jesus as He is not as I might have wrongly perceived Him. I want to understand and I want for instance those here, all of us to understand so they might help me understand better and turn it around and give it right back again. But asking that question also makes one realize just what it is that matters. It isn't what's in my best interest, but what is Gods, better, what is it that He wants? Of me? Of us? And sometimes I can't help but think He would like us to just shut up and listen

To clarify what I said earlier a little further, it is O Chambers who encourages us to do things differently for the good of our soul - not to be a slave to routine or to have a pet way of doing things practical or spiritual, such that the rut prevents us from being touchable.

He is also credited with 'if the Spirit doesn't move me, I move the Spirit'; and I think this is what I was trying to get at by suggesting you take the offensive. I do realise it isn't easy, but, like eating any elephant, it has to be cut into smaller pieces (sorry for very old analogy) and I've put a few suggestions in Eli's old thread 'More than Conquerors'.

As OC says, the moment one finds oneself 'disinclined' that is the moment to STOP EVERYTHING ELSE and deal with it before God.

Listen, I know I'm preaching to the converted.... Just want to encourage you there is a breakthrough point... It's just a matter of keeping on pushing until you hit it.

 2005/9/25 0:51









 Re: What kind of Counsel for those in need of inner healing?

Hi Chanin,

This bit of the quote really bothers me, because people can't help arriving in church with these difficulties.

Quote:
"Helping people to feel loved and worthwhile has become the central mission of the church. We are learning not to worship God in self-denial and costly service, but to embrace our inner child, heal our memories, overcome addictions, lift our depressions, improve our self-images, establish self-preserving boundaries, substitute self-love for self-hatred, and replace shame with an affirming acceptance of who we are.

Recovery from pain is absorbing an increasing share of the church's energy. And it is alarming...

Quite simply, if disciples were out roaming the streets laying hands on the sick and healing them - and casting out demons - by the time the healed, recovered and delivered were making commitment to become Christians, they would be ready from the start to take up their crosses. I know this is an oversimplification, but, it IS the reason there are so many people in the church who need attention to their inner man. And, it is not WRONG to need attention to one's inner man.

In fact, the Church's attitude - that it is alarming people arrive as Christians with these needs - is part of the problem. The Church should be MUCH more aware of the damage done by a life of sin and idolatry than it appears to be willing to acknowledge. This sort of denial does nothing to address basic healing needs.

I agree there is a process of how to learn to think differently. Learning how to let go of pain is another valid learning curve, for the emotionally/physically damaged Christian.

(Chanin, I'm not suggesting you don't know this nor, that you are unsympathetic. I'm merely taking the discussion you've offered and running with it as I see the issues. :-) )

Quote:
We have become committed to relieving the pain behind our problems rather than using our pain to wrestle more passionately with the character and purpose of God.

The brutal truth is, that people whose pain is so little they [i]still[/i] have inner strength, energy and enough resistance to wrestle with it, are not the sort of people who need the sort of healing which those in the first quoted section do.

I agree wholeheartedly that if 'Feeling better has become more important than finding God...' there is a problem. But, that is possibly the perception of the onlooker who is not feeling so unfit that they need to [i]feel better[/i] to function.

The word 'feel' here, is misleading, because it has been put there by the writer/speaker/thinker and it suggests (again) there is something wrong with [u]feeling[/u] unfit, where the word chosen could just as easily have been 'being' unfit. BEING BETTER. That's the pupose of healing.

An honest Christian will still press on by faith even though they're 'feeling' rough, if they perceive God Himself is meeting their need for strength in the inner man. Many do this. But, if God has not met them, it is OUT OF ORDER of fellow Christians to be critical of the deep injury which GOD has chosen NOT to heal at their conversion. We should ALL be aware HE orders their lives and ours, as we do our best to be stones in the same temple, being made to fit perfectly together. It takes time and patience to chip away at those edges, but, it is glorious Body-building work, in which we all are called-upon to engage.

Were the [i]received wisdom[/i] in churches such as is necessary to help those in need through their personal distress, perhaps this would not be such a legitimate discsussion.


EDIT: 26.9.05 1300hBST
I was going to apologise here for having used capitals (because I was in a hurry) rather than italic and bolds which appear more measured. Perhaps the capitals make the post look as if I'm ranting. But, judging from the posts that follow this one, I have to accept there may be a difference culturally, which the US posters are genuinely concerned about.

What troubles me is not the emphasis on the necessity for each individual to lay down self-pity (AMEN!) and also to take responsibility for bringing themselves and their sin to Jesus for forgiveness, but the underlying implication that these two approaches somehow constitute healing.

When Jesus healed, yes, sin was sometimes mentioned - but not always. Further, He healed multitudes again and again. As I asked earlier in the original post here, where is this healing ministry in the Church today?

JESUS CHRIST still is the Great Physician who HEALS. This is not directly to do with the sin of the sick/injured/abused person. I could say very much more on this subtlety. I think it is more helpful to testify of my own having received the Holy Spirit and gifts while still needing monumental healing. The Lord graciously used me in many situations while 'going I was healed' (like the 10 lepers), even though my needs were profound.

The 18 year old Joseph was not the subject of the sort of abuse which cripples lives such that they require much hard work [i]from the survivor[/i] to turn them around. The betrayal by his family was serious, yes, but as the governor, he was in a much better position to organise a happy outcome, than the little people who have to fight against an entire system to be acknowledged.

With due respect to the many examples in the SingleVision article, 'A Victim No Longer', attitudes were attributed to the healed person by the pool of Bethesda, which were entirely added to scripture by the speaker. They are not a valid interpretation of the healed person's experience of being healed - which is after all, at the very least, an encounter with the Living God. When HE says take up your bed, I'm sure He's willing to take responsibility for issuing that command.

Lastly, without doubt, a local church is not [i]naturally[/i] equipped with the attitudes which will most benefit survivors of childhood sexual abuse. And while there are a few considerations which all churches should be able to give all survivors [u]who are healing[/u] (since manifestly there are many survivors who don't want to heal at all), in general, survivors of repeated assaults need more than tlc or 'discipline'. A clear boundary should be set beyond which their participation is neither mandatory or expected (depending on their gifts and graces) to enable the local church to get on with [u]all[/u] the rest of its work.

 2005/9/25 1:18









 Re:

Mike, I do believe whole-heartedly that you 'did' hit it.

Quote: ""I want to know Him as he in fact is. (Katz). I want to know nothing but Jesus as He is, not as I might have wrongly perceived Him.

And sometimes I can't help but think He would like us to just shut up and listen,:-) "" [end quote]


You got it all right there my brother.

We have to have a place to go and Make Time to go there, that is our 'Sanctuary', so to speak, and just cry out for what you've asked for above ... period. He'll be found of us who "Seek diligently", is what He said.

As extreme "hunger and thirsting" that only HE can see. And when it's strong enough and real enough ... He Knows.


HE has to Reveal Himself. No one can reveal Him to me or you or anyone else.

Chip calls it, "the revelation of Jesus" and others call it "to SEE Him" and others, "to Kiss the Son", and so forth, but it's personal, between you and HIM ... and comes as we plead to see His Glory. To see HIM as HE IS. To see the REAL HIM. And to be ready and willing to be crushed by seeing Pure Love & Pure Holiness all at once.



All that you've said within those few quoted sentences.

Amen ! :-)


Edit to P.S. ~ Just got that tap on the shoulder to add .... And He wants that with us all the much more than we desire it and even that desire, no matter how weak or strong, came from HIM to begin with.
All Praise to Jesus.

 2005/9/25 1:19
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Different aspects

Changed my mind, had thought of moving this reply and realized how disjointed it would have been, so I withdrew the effort and put back the original... In other words, never mind....

Quote:
To clarify what I said earlier a little further, it is O Chambers who encourages us to do things differently for the good of our soul - not to be a slave to routine or to have a pet way of doing things practical or spiritual, such that the rut prevents us from being touchable.


Oh with much certainty! There are many thoughts from OC that have been driven deep down into the marrow, one that rises to the top is "[i]How unconventional![/i]"

Quote:
also credited with 'if the Spirit doesn't move me, I move the Spirit'; and I think this is what I was trying to get at by suggesting you take the offensive. I do realise it isn't easy, but, like eating any elephant, it has to be cut into smaller pieces (sorry for very old analogy) and I've put a few suggestions in Eli's old thread 'More than Conquerors'.

As OC says, the moment one finds oneself 'disinclined' that is the moment to STOP EVERYTHING ELSE and deal with it before God.

Listen, I know I'm preaching to the converted.... Just want to encourage you there is a breakthrough point... It's just a matter of keeping on pushing until you hit it.



Think we are both touching on different aspects, this being a multi-faceted Diamond. There is an aspect of Paul's; "I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway." 1Co 9:26,27 on the one hand that may be applicable here, applying it to this "[i]being still[/i]" (Interesting how this keeps coming up)

On the other hand there is the wrestling of Jacob, "Then he said, "Let me go, for the day has broken." But Jacob said, "I will not let you go unless you bless me." Gen 32:26

Funny how these can criss-cross, just prior to this was, "When the man saw that he did not prevail against Jacob, he touched his hip socket, and Jacob's hip was put out of joint as he wrestled with him." Gen 32:25 Decommissioned in the flesh and yet "I am not going anywhere", still holding on. Not sure I am making any sense whatsoever here, perhaps thats where the whole exercise elsewhere was heading, that of prayerlessness and of silence, of listening and truly hearing ... if there is any goal in it at all it would be to just to get us praying.





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Mike Balog

 2005/9/25 10:46Profile
crsschk
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Quote:
This bit of the quote really bothers me, because people can't help arriving in church with these difficulties.



I don't think that is what is being stated here. Nancy seems to be putting her finger on the matter with; [i]"... has become the central mission of the church. "[/i] and [i]"...absorbing an increasing share of the church's energy. And it is alarming...[/i]"

Look at the verbiage in just that one paragraph, it's telling; "Our", "Self" these are the things that she rightly points out that a large part of Christendom has become... "[i]Your best life now[/i]" It's the theme of the age. {*EDIT ~ Was just convicted of this as I was listening to a message from Ernest O'Neill, surely disagree with the philosophy, but the slight was wrong, I recant it, irregardless of motives. http://www.howtolivevictorious.com/ } It would be just as much an error to have no compassion, but I don't think that is what is being spoken of, the emphasis is on coddling sinners and not telling the truth, the greater insult is [i]"We are learning not to worship God in self-denial and costly service."[/i]

Quote:
As a result, we happily camp on biblical ideas that help us feel loved and accepted, and we pass over the scripture that calls us to higher ground. We twist wonderful truths about God's acceptance, His redeeming love, and our new identity in Christ into a basis for honoring ourselves rather than seeing those truths for what they are: [b]the stunning revelation of a God gracious enough to love people who hated Him, a God worthy to be honored above everyone and everything else[/b].



Very much think she is right, the emphasis is upside down. Had started musing yesterday on this thought;

"Honoring the King"

Just the implications and what that [i]used[/i] to mean. Perhaps another thread altogether.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2005/9/25 11:33Profile
moreofHim
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Joined: 2003/10/15
Posts: 1632


 Re: victims?

Hi guys,

There are many interesting responses here and I don't have time to get to each individual thing that deserves attention.

Mike you are right in saying that it is NOT just women who believe lies :-) . I think some one should write a similar book for men. Actually I do know of one that is pretty close to it and it is called "God's Gift to Women" by Eric Ludy- it dispels the lie of the "brotherhood"- what men have grown up believing is real manhood and reveals what God intends real manhood to be- LIKE CHRIST.

I have had my own set of "issues" from the past. I have experienced rejection and pain in my past and have gone through the whole gamut of healing, forgiveness and all of that.

O, how do I want to say what I want to say?

Here are the words that come to me:

accepting responsiblity
being obedient
not making excuses
-and the opposite of these:
transferance(blaming others for our problems and mistakes)

This is where much counsel takes a wrong turn. It creates "victims". Yes, I have had a bad past. I could blame many of my problems and my actions and attitudes even now (my perfectionist tendancies, the way I treat my husband, my controlling behavior,etc... on how my past effected me.

But I won't and don't use excuses. I am responsible for what I know now. If I know something is wrong- then I better do my darndest to let the Lord change me in that area.

"Look at Joseph, you talk about a person that was abused and betrayed. At the age of sixteen or seventeen, he was just a kid. His whole family was messed up. You talk about a co-dependent family! His brothers threw him in a pit, soaked his coat in blood, then sold him to traders, who carried to Egypt as a slave, where he was betrayed by Potiphar’s wife, then he's sent to prison, he’s forgotten by the butler, but in all of this he says God was with him.

And when he had opportunity to revenge himself with his brothers, he had a fabulous statement to make, "you meant this for evil, but God meant this for good." Joseph had Single Vision, he saw that God meant it for good. Was he a victim? He knew he was victimized, but he knew he stood there by the grace of God and that God had worked through him and through his brothers and through all of those who had abused him for his good and for His glory. Joseph did not see himself as a victim." -Gene Veal(Single Vision Counseling)


Because of sin in this world, people in all eras have had terrible tragic lives. But guess what? God still expected obedience and worship. Joseph did that.

I am not saying God doesn't have compassion or that we should not have compassion. I think that when we go through certain experiences (which were allowed by God maybe for this very reason) is so that we can have compassion on those who have had similar experiences.

The tragedys of Joseph's life were not an accident. God knew what He was doing and what He was planning. He was molding Joseph and He is molding us and creating all kinds of opportunities for us, when we experience pain and rejection, etc... God does everything He does to bring Himself glory.

I look back now on my life as a child and young person and I wouldn't change anything. I am who I am today because of my hardships, because I've let God use these things for His good. I can understand people when they feel rejection and I know why they do the things they do. I am drawn to them- to want to help them and bring Truth to them.

I know I fall short, but as much as I've been able, [b]I have refused to live as a victim and allow myself to use my rejection and pain as excuses for wrong attitudes and wrong behavior[/b].

Seeing ourselves as a victim leads to self pity. O, what a mess we get ourselves into then!

There are a couple of wonderful articles at SingleVision Counseling site.

[url=http://www.seegod.org/featured_article.htm]A Victim No longer[/url]

[url=http://www.seegod.org/self_pity.htm]Self Pity[/url]

We can look to Jesus as our example:

"Whenever your flesh would call itself a victim, if you’ll walk in the Spirit of Christ who you really are, Christ does not have a problem with being a victim. Was there anyone ever victimized as Christ was on the cross? For your sin, not his. You don’t hear Jesus crying he’s a victim. No, he says, if you take up your cross and follow him, you’ll lay down your life for another. Not as a victim at all."

"How do we deal with it? The Bible says lay it aside. [b]'Not my will, but thine be done' is the Christ attitude[/b]. The result of referring to what’s happened to you, by referring to yourself as a victim, can result in irresponsibility." -Gene Veal (Single Vision)

In Him, Chanin


_________________
Chanin

 2005/9/25 14:47Profile
ginnyrose
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Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7464
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 Re:

Chanin,
Your testimony proves exactly what I have believed for a long time after counseling females in a crises pregnancy.

Far too many people are looking for something that satisfies their inner self, making them feel good. People have been so blinded by this absorption with self that they cannot think outside the box. All they think about is me, me, me, I, I,....In actuality they are guilty of violating the first of the ten commandments: "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." Meaning they are more interested in serving self then in God and if God can fix it, fine, 'I will allow him to come alongside of me and see if he can fix it' without surrendering their hearts and minds to the One who so longs to come in and make his abode with him/her.

In a lot of cases people want to continue in sin without repenting BUT want to CANCEL the consequences of that lifestyle. This is the heart of most people who have been damaged by a sinful lifestyle, either theirs or anothers. We have had women in our church who say they have been victims of abuse and belabored this pass. They say they want help, and we continued to listen and offered advice and love. And they continued their spiel of woe. Now we are beginning to believe they are rebellious people and are shifting blame onto others for their problems.

Lies women believe? Yes, this is one of them: "I have been abused." Males, less they are accused of being uncaring, etc, have capitulated and helped no one. Ditto, to the older and wise women.

Am I harsh? Sounds like it. The reality is that we have allow rebellious females manipulate the rest of us. To redeem this victim mentalality will require people to stand up and call it what it is and not allow these people to control the group they are a part of.

Now to the ones who really are victims of abuse, there is help and it must be given by a loving church family. And it will be done. But you must want help and that includes a complete surrender to the Lordship of Jesus Christ and ASSUMING responcibilty for your own life AND actions and quit the blaming game. Anything less will never work and the rest of us help no one if we work contrary to this.

Likely, there will be people who will believe I have never been abused; don't know what I am talking about; everything always went fine with me. The answer to that is 'no' it has not. But I quit blaming when I realized that on judgement day God is going to hold me accountable for my own actions and to shift blame onto others will never be accepted by Him.


ginnyrose


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Sandra Miller

 2005/9/25 16:29Profile





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