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moreofHim
Member



Joined: 2003/10/15
Posts: 1632


 What Kind of Counsel?

This passage has really stayed with me as I read it a few months ago. I have had my share of needing biblical counsel and I know many who also have need of it. I have always found it interesting that our flesh would like a "counselor" who will let us off the hook, or justify our actions. Yet, if we want to grow and change into His likeness, then we will want the truth. We will want to know what God says about our hearts, our actions and our emotions. This is why I have enjoyed studying Nouthetic Counseling.

In Him, Chanin

--------------------

-What kind of counsel do you desire?-

The disciple who honestly seeks to let God remold his mind will direct his energies not to sorting out the exceptions, loopholes, or fine points of the law, but to a [b]total surrender of obedient love[/b].

The disciplined Christian will be very careful what sort of counsel he seeks from others. Counsel that contradicts the written Word is ungodly counsel. Blessed is the man that walketh not in that.

Sometimes a person knows well what his trouble is and for this very reason has not consulted the Lord, fearing what He will say: [b]Confess. Turn around. Quit that indulgence. Do not pity yourself. Forgive that person. Pay back what you owe. Apologize. Tell the truth. Deny yourself. Consider the other's well-being. Lay down your life.[/b]

The person is likey to choose a counselor who will listen "nonjudgementally" to his story and perhaps make light of or dismiss as unwarrentd whatever guilt feelings come to the surface. His interpretation of the secrets revealed may be more palatable than that which the person would have found for himself on the pages of the Bible, for the Word is "...sharper than the sharpest knife, cutting deep into our innermost thoughts and desires. It exposes us for what we really are. Nothing in all creation can hide from him. Everything is naked and exposed before his eyes. This is the God to whom we must explain all that we have done." Heb.4:12-13

Throughout our earthly lives...we will accept the solutions, answers, and escapes that the world offers (and there are plenty of those), or the radical alternative shown to the mind attuned to Christ's. The ways of the world exalt themselves against God. They sometimes look rational and appealing to the most earnest disciple, but Christ says to us (as He said to his disciples long ago when they had given up), "Do you also want to leave Me?" Hopefully we will answer as Peter did: "Lord, to whom shall we go? Your words are words of eternal life".

-Elisabeth Elliot (Discipline: The Glad Surrender)


_________________
Chanin

 2005/9/23 8:59Profile









 Re: What Kind of Counsel?

Quote:
for the Word is "...sharper than the sharpest knife, cutting deep into our innermost thoughts and desires. It exposes us for what we really are. Nothing in all creation can hide from him. Everything is naked and exposed before his eyes. This is the God to whom we must explain all that we have done." Heb.4:12-13

OUCH! I've never seen this wording of this passage. Always thought of it more like He will divide for us and cut away our slough, so we see where the life really is....

Quote:
Hopefully we will answer as Peter did: "Lord, to whom shall we go? Your words are words of eternal life".

No argument here. :-)

 2005/9/23 9:06
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7464
Mississippi

 Re: What Kind of Counsel?

You wrote:

The person is likey to choose a counselor who will listen "nonjudgementally" to his story and perhaps make light of or dismiss as unwarrentd whatever guilt feelings come to the surface.

No truer words were ever spoken.

Thanks for posting this. Elizabeth Elliot has a gift of cutting to the core issue of whatever matter is discussed.

ginnyrose


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Sandra Miller

 2005/9/23 9:31Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: What Kind of Counsel?

Excellent Chanin,

Quote:
It exposes us for what we really are. Nothing in all creation can hide from him. Everything is naked and exposed before his eyes. This is the God to whom we must explain all that we have done." Heb.4:12-13



Very much find this verse embedded and is in one sense the measuring line of everything that comes alongside it, in our thoughts, in "application" of how we approach scripture, if we are to be teachable. The thoughts that we may be measuring by our own preconceived ideas, if it "fit's" what we already think we might know, instead of it's opposite, submitting even [i]that[/i] to the test.

And that can be tricky enough as it is, the tendency is to still measure from our angle, not the Lords.

Not sure if this fit's rightly here or not but have found it a season of much difficulty in prayer. The first is in this not so curious "resistance" to stop the carnal mind of enmity against the Lord from getting to the place of prayer in the first place. It's the "I ought to be praying, I want to be praying...but I don't [i]feel[/i] like praying, would rather do ______" And that can be well intentioned (possibly), reading scripture, a Christian Classic, a book on [i]prayer[/i] :-? !!

This may seem dissimilar to what you have presented here yet it seems to be much the same in
Quote:
Sometimes a person knows well what his trouble is and for this very reason has not consulted the Lord, fearing what He will say: [b]Confess. Turn around. Quit that indulgence. Do not pity yourself. Forgive that person. Pay back what you owe. Apologize. Tell the truth. Deny yourself. Consider the other's well-being. Lay down your life.[/b]



Would have to add [b]Pray[/b] to the list.
The sheer stupidity in it all is that if we could just discipline ourselves, make ourselves do some things that the flesh recoils at there can be great blessing in it. There is a getting through in prayer even when it is a struggle and that may not be on the timetable we imagine... it could take days, BUT that may be because of one problem itself, and though I know this all too well, the reality and the difficulty could be summed up in just this:

Learning how to just shut up.

Everything is always clamoring for attention, not only the outward things, but the noise generated in our own heads. What we 'think' we know, what we apt to jump to conclusions on, what we attempt to rationalize or dismiss, even before the Lord in prayer. The question that keeps begging for an answer is "What is it that you want?" And that is in the sense of ultimately, at the very core of our being. The present needs and specifics for whatever circumstances being set aside for the moment to get at a more pressing consideration. "What" or "Who" is it that we are seeking? I cannot think of any higher 'gift' to seek after than God's thought on the matter at hand, which is His will, not in general but in specific, at this moment in time, in this moment of prayer. And to be able to hear anything at all is to shut up everything to be able to hear, not merely listen. To lay everything, every thought, good, bad and indifferent at His feet and be silent. It is a mighty thing sometimes to get there, to a place of utter quietness and silence before Him, but it can be done, it just may take the time and effort to wrestle with ourselves or wrestle it out of ourselves.

Rev 8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

Oh, for this in our prayers. How can we receive any counsel whatsoever from the Lord without it? Is it not the very essence of "Denying yourself"?
This is not to open ourselves up to just any old thing in a sort of mystical sense, but purposefully before Him, to "[i]Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.[/i]" Psa 46:10

When you can get there, to this place of silence, it is rather amazing what you might find. Often it is in the praise and worship that comes forth even if in the struggle before hand you may have been vexed with any number of troubles, concerns, whatever emotions that had to be subdued.

And peace, the rest from fighting against Him, against your own self, the greatest enemy there is. Then it seems we can truly pray and truly intercede for others, gain a truer perspective of ourselves and a clearer understanding of the Lord.

The answer personally to the big question from the Lords perspective, "What is it that you want"?
Keeps coming back to;

Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

That's not mere flowery speech, but from the depths, to be able to share and give back out of the substance of what can only come from Him. It seems an impossibility to share that which we have not received, not from a storehouse of knowledge but from the Counselor Himself. To be clear, what I have found is that getting to this place of silence will bring forth that which has already been absorbed into the spirit, the verses that come to mind, that spring up [i]after[/i] everything has been laid down, not that have been sized up before hand. The perception gets altered and you find you can learn something more so that you are willing to learn and willing to let go, willing to see things in a different light...

Oh, could go on endlessly with this. Gain silence with the Lord, it's worth every ounce of effort.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2005/9/23 10:56Profile









 Re:

"Welcome back Chanin" ... could have used ya some days ago ... but I know y'all have been busy with Katrina's aftermath.

I just wanted to give this link 'just' for a definition and say Thank you for this post and for making yourself seen/heard up here again. :-)


http://achristiancounselor.com/nouthet.html


Love in Him.

Annie

 2005/9/23 16:28
moreofHim
Member



Joined: 2003/10/15
Posts: 1632


 Re: nouthetic counsel

Thanks Annie :)

here is another good link www.Nanc.org

The article page is : http://www.nanc.org/page.asp?contentid=46&sub=7#articles

In Him, Chanin


_________________
Chanin

 2005/9/23 16:47Profile









 Re:

:-) Praise God !

 2005/9/23 16:51
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re: What Kind of Counsel?


Quote:
Sometimes a person knows well what his trouble is and for this very reason has not consulted the Lord, fearing what He will say: Confess. Turn around. Quit that indulgence. Do not pity yourself. Forgive that person. Pay back what you owe. Apologize. Tell the truth. Deny yourself. Consider the other's well-being. Lay down your life.



Sometimes a person knows well what his trouble is and for this very reason has not consulted the Lord. This I have continued to experience in my life. What I know from the Holy Scripture is that which I fear. Jesus paints a picture of a person who learns from Him. I fear dieing to self. I fear loosing this life. And according to Scripture, I know that:

1John 4:17 Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world. 18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love. 19 We love Him because He first loved us.

I have experienced at times this precept. The work of grace in my life has released me from various things which bind me. It is this love that overcomes my fears. Yet I know that there is much more to come.

My heart is not even like Peter's when he said he was willing to drink from the same cup as Jesus would soon do. The Lord said at that time that there would come a day that Peter would willingly drink from the same cup.

Faith is the substance of what I have been given to hope for. The counsel of the Lord by the Holy Spirit has given me the evidence of the faithfulness of God to conform me into the image of His Son. When I have submitted to His leading, the evidence of His faithfulness is beyond doubt. It has been good, very good. This substance of His grace causes me to rest from that which I once strived for foolishly. Thinking like the woman at the well, that a man or this world will bring satisfaction, Jesus through the Holy Spirit causes me to seek for His living water. Yet, I still seek in many ways to satisfy this thirst with water that is of this world. As I seek the water of this world, fear is it's evidence. This I know.

God bless Chanin

In Christ
Jeff







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Jeff Marshalek

 2005/9/23 17:30Profile
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7464
Mississippi

 Re: What Kind of Counsel?

After I reread this piece again, I was reminded of a verse in Psa. 1:1:

Blessed is the man who does not walk in the counsel of the wicked, nor stand in the path of sinners, nor sit in the seat of the scoffers! (NASB)

And that means the likes of Ann Landers or Dear Abby? I have been convicted on this issue...how many take their advice for life from persons such as this? After I quit reading these advice columns, and read it again, I was shocked....

ginnyrose


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Sandra Miller

 2005/9/23 19:44Profile
moreofHim
Member



Joined: 2003/10/15
Posts: 1632


 Re: Conviction reading E.Elliot

Alot of Elisabeth Elliot's writings, as well as Nancy DeMoss's writings have been a huge influence on me and has produced much conviction and confirmation that has spurred me on to grow and change.

Here is an excellent piece on Godly counsel by Nancy DeMoss (from "Lies Women Believe: and the truth that sets them free")

+++

"In spite of all the talk about poor self-image, our instinctive reaction to life is self-centered: How does this affect me? Will this make me happy? Why did this have to happen to me? What does she think about me? It's my turn. Where's my share? Nobody cares about my ideas. He hurt my feelings. I've got to have some time for me. I need my space. He's not sensative to my needs.

It's not enough for us to be the center of our own universe. We want to be the center of everyone else's universe as well--[b]including God's[/b]. In his book Finding God, Dr. Larry Crabb offers a penetrating analysis of the extent to which the evangelical church has given in to this deception:

"Helping people to feel loved and worthwhile has become the central mission of the church. We are learning not to worship God in self-denial and costly service, but to embrace our inner child, heal our memories, overcome addictions, lift our depressions, improve our self-images, establish self-preserving boundaries, substitute self-love for self-hatred, and replace shame with an affirming acceptance of who we are.

Recovery from pain is absorbing an increasing share of the church's energy. And it is alarming...

We have become committed to relieving the pain behind our problems rather than using our pain to wrestle more passionately with the character and purpose of God. [b]Feeling better has become more important than finding God[/b]...

As a result, we happily camp on biblical ideas that help us feel loved and accepted, and we pass over the scripture that calls us to higher ground. We twist wonderful truths about God's acceptance, His redeeming love, and our new identity in Christ [b]into a basis for honoring ourselves[/b] rather than seeing those truths for what they are: the stunning revelation of a God gracious enough to love people who hated Him, a God worthy to be honored above everyone and everything else.

...[b]We have rearranged things so that God is now worthy of honor because He has honored us. "Worthy is the Lamb", we cry, not in response to His amazing grace, but because He has recovered what we value most: the ability to like ourselves. We now matter more than God."[/b]



Paul understood that [b]God does not exhist for us, but that we exhist for Him[/b]:

"For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him." col.1:16

"...nor do I count my life dear to myself, so that I may finish my race with joy, and the ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify to the gospel of the grace of God." acts 20:24

[b]The bottom line for Paul was: "TO LIVE IS CHRIST." Once that was settled, nothing else mattered much." [/b]

--Nancy DeMoss


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Chanin

 2005/9/23 20:40Profile





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