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rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re:

A question.

For those who label themselves Calvinist, isn't the idea of "false conversion" a moot point?

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2005/9/22 11:14Profile
Compton
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Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Quote:
For those who label themselves Calvinist, isn't the idea of "false conversion" a moot point?



Why would you think that? Calvinists such as Edwards, Spurgeon, and Pink urgently addressed the danger of false faith. Apparently the problem was common in their times as well.

MC


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Mike Compton

 2005/9/22 11:54Profile
PreachParsly
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Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

I think it's always been a problem. There has always been false Christians creeping into the church. It's interesting to see in the epistles how many people they would greet and "receive."

Rom 16:1-2 I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea: That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also.

Col 4:10 Aristarchus my fellowprisoner saluteth you, and Marcus, sister's son to Barnabas, (touching whom ye received commandments: if he come unto you, receive him;)


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Josh Parsley

 2005/9/22 13:54Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re:

My point is directed more towards the teaching of irresistible grace. It just seems futile for those who believe in such a doctrine to worry about who is a false convert. You are either converted or not period.

Yet Scripture does not support this idea of false conversion. Rather it speaks to those who day by day say "Yes Lord."

Rev. 2:7 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God.” ’

Rev. 2:11 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.” ’

Rev. 2:17 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give some of the hidden manna to eat. And I will give him a white stone, and on the stone a new name written which no one knows except him who receives it.” ’

Rev. 2:26 And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations—

Rev. 3:5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

Rev. 3:12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name.

Rev. 3:21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

Rev. 21:7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son.

All but one of the churches were warned of specific situations which required those to "overcome." The Holy Spirit is available to all who will say "Yes Lord."

The wheat and the tares, what cause one to grow to become a tare? What cause one to become fruitful? What does Scripture say?


In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2005/9/22 17:01Profile
Compton
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Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Quote:
My point is directed more towards the teaching of irresistible grace. It just seems futile for those who believe in such a doctrine to worry about who is a false convert.



Nevetheless, the preachers I mentioned, (as you probably know,) had some very pointed things to say about false faith. One of the mistakes I think we make about the Calvinist doctrine of irresistable grace, is the idea that Calvinists presume to concern themselves with who is the elect and who isn't. They certainly didn't feel that irresistable grace was manifested by a mere profession of faith. Even within the framewok of election, they felt that the elect's claim of justification was bore out in the sanctification. Even AW Pink, well known to champion the soverignty of God, would not let the professing Christian rest without rigorous self-inspection.

One thing I would like to confirm here...when we all say "false conversion" I assume that we are talking about a false faith---a kind of faith that appears Christian on the outside...A self-deceived unregenerate hope for heaven through means of church conformity, religous humanism, and intellectual profession of doctrine.

I bring this up because I agree with you Jeff when you say...
Quote:
You are either converted or not period.



MC


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Mike Compton

 2005/9/22 17:47Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re:

Brother Mike wrote:

Quote:
Nevetheless, the preachers I mentioned, (as you probably know,) had some very pointed things to say about false faith.



The origin of false faith rests in the carnal mind. The carnal mind can never please God because it is God who must speak through the Holy Spirit to man to give him the things of Christ. False conversion comes from man saying that he is saved. True conversion comes from God telling man that His Spirit is working in him to reveal Christ in him. This is the seal of the Spirit in those who are being converted for Christ glory.

How can one who does not obey be known by God? Being known by God means that one continues to seek God because he has said, "Yes Lord." The relationship begins as a small mustard seed. The Lord teaches us to "hear" His word. It all begins with reading the Holy Scriptures. Understanding comes from hear Him speak to you. This is the gift of the Holy Spirit. It is the renewing of the mind according to Him speaking to you that enables you to hope in the "substance" that is given to you by Him. The evidence of what you hope in becomes evident to all who know you. It is Christ in us that reveals to the world that the "substance" in what they hope for is futile. It is this "futility" that ferments hatred in those who see the glory of Christ in His disciples.

Genesis 3:15,

15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2005/9/28 12:10Profile
Compton
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Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Quote:
How can one who does not obey be known by God?



Well said Jeff. If our sotierology, whether Arminian, Calvinist or whatever, can't find it's way to Jeremiah's prophecy "I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people." then we should question the legitimacy of our faith.

MC


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Mike Compton

 2005/9/28 12:58Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re:

To continue on:

So false conversion really means that one has refused to obey the Holy Spirit. All begin their walk as babes in Christ.
All have been given all Spiritual gifts. See 1 Corinthians 1. Yet all begin still under the influence of the carnal mind. Paul teaches in Romans 7 and 8 that those who remain under the influence of the carnal mind will not please God and in fact will be those who Christ will say, I never knew you, you who practice lawlessness. Yet there will be those who say "yes Lord." Those who walk with Christ will learn of His righteousness through the leading of the Holy Spirit. Their minds are being transformed time after time learning from the Spirit those things which are Christ's. It is these who submit to the leading of the Holy Spirit, these are the ones who are truly converted and their hearts cry out Abba Father. These are the ones who Christ teaches about in beatitudes. These are the ones who actually thirst for His righteousness.

The word of God is the source of one's faith; beginning with the Holy Scriptures and then the receiving of the refreshing, the receiving of the word of knowledge, the receiving of understanding which give wisdom.

So those who repent and then stop walking are those who never grew Spiritually. These are those who cannot glorify Christ because they have continued to submit to the carnal mind.

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2005/9/28 13:05Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re:

His promise is freely given to all who decide to listen to Him. All things will be freely given so that salvation is realized by those who decide to open their ears to His instructions. All grace necessary for conforming us into His Son's image if freely given. The promise is real. The effects of the promise become evident to those who submit. Continual submission creates a new substance for what we hope in. Continual submission creates a new song that become the strength of our life. His Life saves us.

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2005/9/28 13:59Profile





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