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 Discipleship Unbiblical

I went to crosswalk.com and searched all translations for "discipleship" and it's no where to be found. You would think it would be somewhere in the bible considering the focus that modern Christianity puts on it.

One of the greatest oppositions to street preaching is that they say we do not "disciple" people, that there is no "follow up".

The reason that "discipleship" is not in any bible is because it implies someone is becoming a disciple rather then being a disciple. As soon as someone repents from their sins and believes the gospel they become a disciple. There is no becoming a disciple. You either have repented or you haven't. When you go out and preach repentance, you make disciples out of those who hear and obey. They instantly become disciples of Jesus Christ.

No where in scripture is "follow up" mentioned either. Jesus never followed anyone around, people followed Jesus. If someone truly turns from their sin and turns to God then they will follow God whether or not they have to do it alone or with someone. Though, as Paul said, "all men forsook me" it doesn't matter because "the Lord stood with me".

That is not to say that we should not mentor someone who wants to be mentored. Rather I am saying don't waste your time doing "follow-up" with a few people who aren't interested, when you could go and preach the gospel to the multitudes. But of coarse if you could get someones # or address so you could witness to them again or mail them a gospel tract, that is awesome.

 2005/9/19 13:05









 Re: Discipleship Unbiblical

Jesse, I understand where you are coming with this. But, there is SOME error in it. One way it's correct, the other falliable.

It is correct if you say 'we don't need to follow-up on people to keep them Christians'.

But it is in error with saying 'we don't need to disciple people'. This [url=http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/?search=had%20disciples&version1=49&searchtype=all&limit=none&wholewordsonly=no]link.[/url] will provide you with ALL the scriptures that have 'disciples' in the verse, in the NASB translation.

Discipleship, in as 'follow me as I follow Jesus' is NEEDED in the body of Christ today, that is RARLY seen; and truly neglected.

I believe this scripture proves flaw to saying 'we don't need to disciple anyone'.

Matthew 13: 3-9,18-23 (NASB)

3 And He spoke many things to them in parables, saying, "Behold, the sower went out to sow;

4 and as he sowed, some seeds fell beside the road, and the birds came and ate them up.

5 "Others fell on the rocky places, where they did not have much soil; and immediately they sprang up, because they had no depth of soil.

[b] 6 "But when the sun had risen, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away. [/b]

7 "Others fell among the thorns, and the thorns came up and choked them out.

8 "And others fell on the good soil and yielded a crop, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty.

9 "He who has ears, let him hear."

18 "Hear then the parable of the sower.
19 "When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is the one on whom seed was sown beside the road.

[b] 20 "The one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, this is the man who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy;

21 yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away. [/b]

22 "And the one on whom seed was sown among the thorns, this is the man who hears the word, and the worry of the world and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful.

23 "And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who indeed bears fruit and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty."


Why do I say this? Many new believers, INCLUDING MYSELF, had a genuine conversion. But no one had me founded on the Word of God. Many 'believers' (some say they aren't Christian, like Ray Comfort, i tend to differ, but still same point) hear God's word and accept it, but with no foundation how can they stand?

Throughout the bible, PEOPLE HAD DISCIPLES, to learn or glean from. Or better yet 'mentors/fathers/mothers/mature of the faith' to teach and guide the new believers.

Jesus had disciples (duh), Paul, Peter, many, just look up that link I provided.

We need to help build the foundation, the foundation is NOT built in a day. ALWAYS REMEMBER THAT! It takes work and time. Tears and blood, it takes your entire being and the Power of the Holy Spirit.

 2005/9/19 13:47
TonyS
Member



Joined: 2005/1/29
Posts: 154
Kansas City, Missouri

 Re: Discipleship Unbiblical

It’s sad indeed there would be believers who would actually oppose street preaching, makes no sense to me frankly.

Let us give thanks for the one who plants, let us be thankful for the one who waters (mentors, disciples, irrigates) and let us ultimately give thanks to God who alone gives all the increase.

! Cor 3:6 “ I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.”

I will typically have lunch at a particular restaurant once a week here in Kansas City, and each week at the same time there are two fellows seated nearby reading and discussing the Scriptures together . After a couple weeks of seeing this I inquired as to the nature of this meeting and was told of the new convert and the more seasoned believer taking their lunch hour once a week for what they termed “discipleship”. Call it mentoring, watering ect… but it’s a beautiful sight to behold to see the hunger from both these gentlemen.

And make no mistake many of us, myself included were some of those uninterested or in an early awakened state folk, but someone(s) wouldn’t give up on us. Let’s allow the planter to be about his Father’s business, and let us allow the one who waters to be about his Father’s business. May we make allowances and room for all the Gifts of the Holy Spirit to be in operation as we endeavor to bring in the Harvest.

God Bless,
TonyS



_________________
Tony Sexton

 2005/9/19 14:01Profile
PreachParsly
Member



Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

You could also interpret those verses you posted as the person that falls away had no true understanding of why they needed a Savior. If you know you are going to hell without Him people won't have to follow you around trying to teach you things you don't want to hear. You will yearn for more of Jesus if you realize that is what you must have.


_________________
Josh Parsley

 2005/9/19 14:01Profile
PreachParsly
Member



Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

I don't think Jesse is meaning stop teaching/preaching the word. (If I'm wrong Jesse then correct me) From what I get out of his post is that if they are born again, they are a disciple of Jesus. If they are not then keep preaching and praying that they will be. If you are uninterested in God, you need to be born again.

Yes teach new converts about the things of God.. but you will not have a beg a new convert to come listen to you, as you would someone who really isn't born again.


_________________
Josh Parsley

 2005/9/19 14:06Profile
dann
Member



Joined: 2005/2/16
Posts: 239
Winnipeg, Manitoba Canada

 Re: Discipleship Unbiblical

Quote:
As soon as someone repents from their sins and believes the gospel they become a disciple.



That would make the terms "disciple" and "Christian" synonomous would it not? I don't think scripture teaches this - (Considering the vast multitude of disciples who were never saved, not the least of which is Judas Iscariot).

Dan
/\/
\/\


_________________
Daniel van de Laar

 2005/9/19 15:45Profile









 Re:

A disciple is a follower of Jesus. A Christian is a follower of Jesus. Judas stopped following Jesus, so Judas stopped being a disciple. If he had godly sorrow that lead to repentance, not worldly sorrow which leads to death, he would have repented and started following Christ again as Peter did.

A disciple and a Christian are the same thing.

I am all for mentoring new Christians. I've had wonderful mentors myself. But they never sought after me, I sought after them. That is a mark of a true convert, they will seek out fellowship and read the Word on their own. I prayed with a man who was so convicted he would barely talk, just this friday. He was a hardcore thug looking guy, but the Law shattered him with conviction. After we prayed, I gave him my card and told him to call me anytime.

Rather then getting someones number to follow them, give out your number and see if they truly hunger and thirst for fellowship and learning.

Usually when people say to me "I don't like street ministry (aka evangelism) because you don't do any discipleship" what they mean is that I don't get the phone number of everyone I give a tract to. We have replaced biblical evangelism with a man made "follow up". But unless a man repent, he is not a disciple, and cannot be discipled. You don't need to follow unbelievers around and try to disciple them. If someone repents from all their sins, invite them to your church and tell them to come to bible study.

But if a man doesn't repent, I wouldn't invite him to come and fellowship at Church. It will damage and pollute the Church. But in our day we would rather the world comes to us, then for us to go to the world (because we don't want to evangelize). The Church is where Christians need to be fed, the highways and the hedges is where Christians are to tell nonbelievers to come into Christ. (to through in my thoughts on the seeker sensative teachings).

In the words of Emeal Zwayne "people who need people to walk with God, don't walk with God, they walk with people."

 2005/9/19 16:06
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Discipleship Unbiblical

19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

Matthew 28:19-20 (New International Version)



19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Matthew 28:19-20 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain

Though naturually understand where you would be going here Jesse isn't there still some things to be considered? That the disciples followed the Lord around for quite some time before being sent out for instance. Of course that is obvious but think there is a lot of danger in 'sending' unripe fruit out into the world ...

Quote:
One of the greatest oppositions to street preaching is that they say we do not "disciple" people, that there is no "follow up".


Seems like two different things here, one a following up as if to see if those were either in ernest or in such a way as if it was up to us somehow to do the following and convincing, as you mentioned "to those who are not interested", would agree, this isn't some kind of sales pitch.

Fortunately, the Lord has seen fit to do this as was stated with the reasoning of Pauls "Will the eye say to the hand?..." It's definetly a "both\and", Stephen comes instantly to mind, table waiter, street preacher par excellence and marytr.

I know what you mean brother, the meanings we pour into words can take on a life of their own and soon can become something other than or more than they should...

Maybe the next time you hear [i]"... we do not "disciple" people[/i]" agree with them and ask if they can have [i]their[/i] phone numbers to pass on to the hearers since they have such a great concern for them, they would surely love to help them out, no?

Beyond that you can always send them here ... 8-)


_________________
Mike Balog

 2005/9/19 16:14Profile
Conqueror
Member



Joined: 2005/9/8
Posts: 71


 Re:

Salvation and discipleship. Two completely different things.

Discipleship not in the Bible? You must have a different Bible than mine.

Discipleship is nothing more than taking new believers in Christ and "training them in the way that they should go that they might not depart from it". Yes, I know that verse is for parents to children but the principle is the same. It is taking that new believer, training them on the Word, in Christ into The Way.

There are at least three discipleship models in the New Testament.

The Jesus model with his disciples. Jesus discipled the twelve who in turn discipled others. Jesus discipled Peter who discipled Mark. This is the one on many model.

The Paul/Timothy model. The one on few model.

The Mark/Barnabas model. When Mark abandoned Paul, Barnabas took him under his wing. This is the peer to peer model.

Paul in a long distance way discipled whole churches with his letters. He recogonized needs or fallacies in that church..spoke to the problem at hand and revealed Biblical truth to that Church. He corrected them..showed them the way they should go. He discipled others by telling them to be imitators of him (Paul) and imitators of God.

Not being able to find the word "discipleship" in the Bible means nothing. You cannot find the word Trinity either...

Evangelism is extremely important. I do not knock street preaching. However, I do believe that once an evangelist leads someone to Christ it is vitally important for that evangelist to make sure that person gets involved into the local body life. I do believe just leading someone to Christ and not discipling that person is like leaving someone to the wolves. That I am speaking with experience.

Discipling is what the spiritual gift of pastoring/shepherding is. Its being responsible for the spiritual health of others.

Can you be a Christian and not be a disciple? I say yes. A disciple by definition is someone who accepts a teaching or belief and FOLLOWS that belief. I was saved 10 years ago. During those ten years I did not follow God... I was addicted to porn, almost had an affair and shunned everything to do with God.I almost committed suicide twice. 10 years later I repented of that, and actively started following God. I placed myself in submission to a couple of Godly men...(in case you were wondering, one I sought out, the other sought me out).

Was I a disciple of Christ during those 10 years? No, I did not follow His ways. Was I saved? yes, absolutely...but if I had died during that time I would been someone (like Paul said) who would have been saved from the fire...by the seat of his pants.

 2005/9/19 16:30Profile









 Re:

Okay, let me post more vivdly, hopefully you will understand it all and realize we are all saying the same thing.

One, Jesse your orginal post can EASILY be taken a wrong way. It ALMOST sounds like you are saying 'discipleship is of the devil, we don't need to teach them and encourage new believers'.

Also, to the rest of the posters. Posting about 'anti-street preaching' where did that come from?? It's like being in a class and the teacher is teaching about math and a student asks the teacher about History. Where is that person's mind? If you go that from what I typed, I wasn't posting anything against 'street-preachers' but against brother Jesse's post.

I personally have felt God 'put a seed' within me about street preaching. And I'll let Him finish the work that He has started. By all means, anyone to say 'street-preaching is no good' should also say 'Jesus should've been quite in public, and John the baptist, and Isaiah and the rest of them.' It's riduculous to say 'there is no need for that'. (I'll leave it at that, cause I could talk about how much the church NEEDS and others say 'its fine', and I bet you all could too).

Jesse said this "But if a man doesn't repent, I wouldn't invite him to come and fellowship at Church. It will damage and pollute the Church. But in our day we would rather the world comes to us, then for us to go to the world (because we don't want to evangelize). The Church is where Christians need to be fed, the highways and the hedges is where Christians are to tell nonbelievers to come into Christ. (to through in my thoughts on the seeker sensative teachings)."
I think that's a biblical principle that people ignore and they brush it off like its just dust on their shoulder. Let's NOT bring leaven in the church, but remove that which is already there.

I hope that cleared alot of the stuff up.

 2005/9/19 16:36





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