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Discussion Forum : General Topics : The Israel Christian Hoax? Are modern Jews the Old Testament chose people of God?

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RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

So how did the Rabbinic Jews just take over and lock the people up in thise false religion? Did they not have to deal with God Himself? We deal with issues of God being in authority in the Church today. Read how the Rabbi's dealt God out of the picture completely!

[b][size=small]IT IS NOT IN HEAVEN (Bath Kol) [/size][/b]
By Robert Wurtz II

There reached a point when the credibility of an “audible voice from Heaven” had to be contended with. An audible voice from God was considered authoritative in all matters in the time of Christ among the Jews. But there were too many cases in the New Testament when this happened and it authenticated the New Testament and Christ (among other things). There was only one way for the Rabbi’s to deal with this and it was with one fail swoop of a statement… “IT IS NOT IN HEAVEN!” Consider the commonly told story of how this came about. This adaptation is from Lightfoot Commentary on Mark 8, but is commonly found in many sources:

"On that day, R. Eliezer answered to all the questions in the whole world, but they hearkened not to him. He said therefore to them, 'If the tradition be according to what I say, let this siliqua [a kind of tree] bear witness.' The siliqua was rooted up, and removed a hundred cubits from its place: there are some who say four hundred. They say to him, 'A proof is not to be fetched from a siliqua.' He saith to them again, 'If the tradition be with me, let the rivers of waters testify': the rivers of waters are turned backward. They say to him, 'A proof is not to be fetched from the rivers of waters.' He said to them again, 'If the tradition be with me, let the walls of the school testify': the walls bowed, as if they were falling. R. Josua chid them, saying, 'If there be a controversy between the disciples of the wise men about tradition, what is that to you?' Therefore the walls fell not in honour of R. Josua. Yet they stood not upright again in honour of R. Eliezer. He said to them, moreover, 'If the tradition be with me, let the heavens bear witness.' The Bath Kol went forth and said, 'Why do ye contend with R. Eliezer, with whom the tradition always is?' R. Jonah rose up upon his feet, and said, 'It is not in heaven' (Deut 30:12). What do these words, 'It is not in heaven,' mean? R. Jeremiah saith, When the law is given from mount Sinai, we do not care for the Bath Kol."



According to Daniel Gruber there is five major things that this story teaches:


1. The Rabbis do not accept the miraculous in determining the correctness of a teaching or tradition. Deuteronomy does warn against following someone with a sign, if they are proclaiming let us go after other gods. So signs can be in an anti-God context.
But the issue with Rabbi Eliezar doesn’t fall into this category, since he wasn’t talking about following other gods. It wasn’t a question of idolatry but AUTHORITY. Can proof be brought from a carob tree or a stream of water or a voice from heaven? Scriptures says so. (E.g., Aaron’s rod, or blood in Nile, fleece of Gideon.)

2. The Rabbis paid no attention to a heavenly voice (Bath Kol) after Sinai.
Rabbi Joshua says, "lo ba-shamayim hi, It is not in heaven." So after Sinai, we pay no attention to a heavenly voice. This is quite convenient considering how God spoke from Heaven concerning Jesus SEVERAL times in the New Testament. The ruling was quite ex post facto.
Yet throughout Scripture a voice from Heaven from God speaks out in Job, Psalms, and Ezekiel, God DID speak from Heaven. Indeed, everywhere else in Talmud itself, a voice from Heaven is authoritative.

3. The authority to determine what is acceptable does not rest with God but with the majority. Pay no attention to a heavenly voice (bath kol). Yet in Exodus 23:2. "You shall follow a multitude to do evil," by implication you must follow a multitude to do good. But who defines good? In the story, God didn’t know he had decreed this! He didn’t know that he’d given up his authority to the majority of Rabbis(?!). In Tanakh (Old Testament), the majority is almost always wrong! Throughout Tanakh, God acts as if he’s still in charge, bringing judgment upon the majority when it is in sin.

4. Yet this story portrays God as laughing, "My sons have defeated (outwitted) me!" Yet is God ever portrayed in Tanakh this way? Are men ever smarter than God?
It’s a humorous story when you read it, but when you think of it, it’s not so funny. Contrast Psalm 2 and other references to God laughing, in supreme authority.

5. The Rabbis will excommunicate anyone who will not submit to their decision.
This is not normative first century Judaism.
It’s fitting that it’s Rabbi Eliezar the Great that’s been excommunicated, circa 115 CE.


Consider these cases in Scripture when a VOICE from Heaven Spoke (bath kol)


Genesis 3:9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?

Genesis 22:11 And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.

Exodus 3:4 And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.

Deuteronomy 4:33 Did ever people hear the voice of God speaking out of the midst of the fire, as thou hast heard, and live?

Job 38:1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,

Daniel 4:31 While the word was in the king's mouth, there fell a voice from heaven, saying, O king Nebuchadnezzar, to thee it is spoken; The kingdom is departed from thee.

Matthew 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Matthew 17:5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

Mark 1:11 And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Mark 9:7 And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.

Luke 3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

Luke 9:35 And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.

John 12:28-30 Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again. The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him. Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.

Acts 9:4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do. And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.

2 Peter 1:17,18 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.

Revelation 10:4 And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.

Revelation 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

Revelation 14:2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

Revelation 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Revelation 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.





Notes:

“Five major things” taken from notes and supplemented: "The Day the Rabbis Were Wrong" Yeshiva course at Messiah 2000 taught by Daniel Gruber)

“Consider this list “compiled by: http://www.mv.com/ipusers/butterfly/rev/bathkol.htm or philologos.org

Google yields 1,190 entries for “bath kol”


(Encyclopedic Dictionary of Judaica)

Lightfoot commentary can be found at:
http://www.gospelcom.net/eword/comments/mark/light/mark8.htm

Daniel Gruber "Rabbi Akiba's Messiah" c. 1999 Elijah Publishing
Box 776 Hanover, NH 03755


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2005/9/15 8:44Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

There is much more that could be said as to how subverted the things of God had become and how the Rabbi's assumed authority. They are still in authority as far as those who practice Orthodox Judaism is concerned.

So what we have here is a people that have been raised up generation after generation after generation locked up in the falsehood of Rabbinic Judaism. They do not look to the Old Testament (Torah) as many think they do- they look at the Talmud as being in authority. The Talmud is a combination of Oral Law and traditions + former Rabbi's writings and rulings.

They are taught from childhood that Christians have used the cross as a sword against them for 1600+ years shedding their blood and persecuting them on the right hand and the left. And they have a tremendous amount of history to fortify this teaching. They believe Luther to be partly responsible for Mein Komph and Hitlers diabolic philosophy because of the tractate "On the Jews and their Lies".

Because of all this- we have a people group- however we want to define them- that can be traced back to Israel- however complicated that may be- who are locked up in falsehood. I can give several reasons as to why I am certain they have a direct link with the people of the Old Testament genetically, culturally, and religiously. Some have already been given in this thread. The issue of the nation state of Israel is different to me all together. The people who have that specific identity as Jews who have maintained that identity- distorted and marred though it be- in almost every country of the world are the Jews. Not the Jews that are Jews inwardly- who serve God in the Spirit and have no confidence in the flesh- but the Jews who are the children of those who rejected Christ and are locked up in the doctrine of the Pharisees.

Are they saved in their Rabbinic Judaism? Nay verily! Do they need the Gospel? Absolutely! Am I to drop everything and try to reach them at this moment? Only as God leads and opens opportunity.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2005/9/15 9:27Profile
ginnyrose
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Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7449
Mississippi

 Re: The Israel Christian Hoax? Are modern Jews the Old Testament chose people of God?

Patrick,

I did not read the entire article, but I am familiar with its concept.

[Some] Amelleniumism (sp?) will work hard to debunk Jews and any possible role they may have in the future. It seems to me that if you have to work so hard to destroy peoples' appreciation of Jews, you must be pretty desperate and this s not the way thinking Christians act, is it?

This my understanding on this issue because I have heard it before.

ginnyrose


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Sandra Miller

 2005/9/15 10:03Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Krispy
From your latest post I think I shall have to plead guilty to 'replacement theology' in most of your points. I still think the phrase is confusing.
you say

Quote:
There are really only two views, either the Church is a continuation of Israel (Replacement Theology)

Ought that not to be 'Continuation Theology'? How can 'continuation' be described as 'replacement'?

Would you be prepared to agree that the verses I quoted from Hebrews point to some kind of 'replacement'? If so, what kind of replacement?

I don't subscribe to premillenial dispensationalism, so I guess that's another strike against me.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/9/15 10:53Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
[Some] Amelleniumism (sp?) will work hard to debunk Jews and any possible role they may have in the future.



I think a lot of the eschatological teachings of the last 170 years have been very destructive and counter productive to the cause of Christ. Ravenhill repeatedly points this out. As a young Christian I was fascinated with end time things, but as I read the Bible I realized that a lot of those charts could not possibly be right. Way too many anomolies in them.

I say just be ready for what ever comes. Be a true martyr- ready to live and die for Christ. I figure if I prepare for the worst case scenerio then if I am pleasantly surprised by some other happening (such as a pre trib Rapture)- then I am ready anyway. I have nothing to lose by being ready for the worst- I have much to lose if I am caught un-prepared.

Either way I don't get caught up in all the end time prophesies, dispensationalism, ect. etc. Nor do I necessarily take the views of those who see the Jews as critical to end time prophecy. The messianics will blast a pretrib person and ask them- "Why it is the pretrib guys believe the Jews need to suffer more anyhow? How many halocausts are they supposed to go through for rejecting Christ? What about the Gentiles who reject Christ and sin highhandedly in light? where is their judgment?etc. etc. " See what I mean?

God Bless,

-Robert


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Robert Wurtz II

 2005/9/15 11:01Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Hi Ron,

Quote:
I don't subscribe to premillenial dispensationalism, so I guess that's another strike against me.



I would be interested to hear your eschatological views sometime. ;-) I have always wondered, but never could piece it together from your audio and text messages. Maybe I just have not found the right one yet.

God Bless,

-Robert


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Robert Wurtz II

 2005/9/15 11:04Profile
Nasher
Member



Joined: 2003/7/28
Posts: 404
Watford, UK

 Re:

Hi Robert, I have a feeling he may subscribe to the "pan-trib" viewpoint!

Ron - ;-)


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Mark Nash

 2005/9/15 11:34Profile
GaryE
Member



Joined: 2005/4/26
Posts: 376
Mifflinburg, Pennsylvania

 Re:


There are web sites that use DNA tests to find your ancestral blood line. People that are into genealogy sometimes use web site data bases to extend their family genealogy charts. The DNA tests are suppose to tell the percents of your ancestry from regions on earth and sometimes where your ancestors migrated from. One of the DNA blood lines is suppose to go back to Aaron.

I’ve always understood the following scripture to be a prophesy that is to be fulfilled near the second coming of Christ to the earth. It is my understanding that there will be a Jewish remnant that will finally recognize Jesus during the tribulation.

Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

In Christ,
GaryE


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Gary Eckenroth

 2005/9/15 12:06Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Hi Robert, I have a feeling he may subscribe to the "pan-trib" viewpoint!



Pan-trib? :-?


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Robert Wurtz II

 2005/9/15 12:15Profile
PreachParsly
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Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

by the way what is pan-trib?


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Josh Parsley

 2005/9/15 12:37Profile





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