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Discussion Forum : General Topics : The Israel Christian Hoax? Are modern Jews the Old Testament chose people of God?

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Christisking
Member



Joined: 2005/7/20
Posts: 672
Los Angeles, California

 Re:

Dorcas, I did not add the following part, and I did not write the article or consider it to be Truth, but merely one mans opinion -

“READ Carefully
You will have to think … these truths once understood
Will change your Faith forever.”

That is how the article read.

Sorry if this “falls way below” the usually standard you have come to expect from me. And yes I absolutely can hear the attitude and condensation in this article. Some of what Rick Johnson has to say is pretty good and some is really, really bad. I don’t have much experience in this specific subject and am looking for Scriptural accuracy and verification on both points of view. I am interested in finding out more about the relation between the Old Testament Jews and the Jews that occupy the current nation of Israel and other countries around the world. I am familiar with some of what Art Katz and Michael Brown have to say on the subject, but am not sure that I 100% agree with such an interpretation and point of view. I am also interested in finding out more about what I think some refer to as “Replacement Theology” and why people would consider it Scriptural or un-Scriptural.

I respect the knowledge and opinions of many posters here on SI, so I am looking to them for some opinions, thoughts and answers.

Rick Johnston website is www.gotosimpletruth.com He speaks out strongly against the TBN crowd (which is probably how I ran across him) and many others most of us would consider false teachers, but I could find nothing about Art Katz on his site, but I’m sure he would probable consider Art a false teacher. (which I certainly do not - Art is one of my favorite teachers and speakers of all time and a true and rare man of God- even though I’m not sure I agree 110% with every last word he speaks)

Anyway sorry if I picked a bad article to start such a discussion, but nonetheless any comments on the subject would be helpful in my studies.

Thanks



_________________
Patrick Ersig

 2005/9/14 22:02Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Anyway sorry if I picked a bad article to start such a discussion, but nonetheless any comments on the subject would be helpful in my studies.

Thanks




No Brother, ALL things work together for the good, and I am glad this topic is coming up and I've read the posts so far and they're really good.

I don't feel I have to say a word on this thread, because I know the guys on Page 1 already are doing a bang up job and will be back, as they said they would, to finish this up rightly. And I look forward to just sitting back and reading what I'm sure I know will be good.


There is a certain promise to the 1/3 that I hope someone will bring out also, or besides.
Many, many promises to them indeed.

Thank you Patrick for starting this much needed discussion.


God Bless you.

Annie

 2005/9/14 23:29
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Hi Patrick,

First my apologies, got a little mixed up there. The site you have linked below your signature was what I was referencing earlier in regards to Art Katz. I thought this is where the original article had generated from, my mistake. Sorry for the confusion.

The link you have to Rick Johnston was directing to a web hosting site of sorts, the reason being that at the end you had a "." at the end of .com(.)

I took the liberty to remove that "." so it directs to the correct site.

A lot of time it is helpful to put the title of an article in [i]italics[/i] or [b]bold[/b] text to show a division and beginning or even a series of ~~~~~~~~~. Just so there is a point of leaving off 'our' own words and those of another. There are some posts around here that spell out how to use HTML or the 'language' for doing this.

Quote:
Anyway sorry if I picked a bad article to start such a discussion, but nonetheless any comments on the subject would be helpful in my studies.



Think Roberts suggestions earlier would be helpful. There was a lot of ground covered previously in this area and just to keep from repeating much of the same things again. But as to a discussion, think while it is something that can become a flash point for controversy that hopefully it can be done in the right spirit as with all things here.

Don't have a full orbed running thought about a lot of this area, much to learn and much that is just kind of held in abeyance. I don't know if I find for instance Art Katz's take on things to be essentially true or more accurately, it's almost besides the point to me personally... I find him endearing because of his love for the truth and for want of a real reality in this walk and can find that even with the uncertainty of his particular end times views, and that would be the same for most of them. Actually becoming even less of a 'pan' millinest (It will all 'pan' out) and am leaning heavily towards.. It will happen, I don't know when... "No opinion" :-?


_________________
Mike Balog

 2005/9/15 1:20Profile









 Re:

Instant Replay.

"No Opinion ?


Well I have an opinion ....


I Love You Mike."

:-)


Always !

Annie your cracked-pot sister :-?

 2005/9/15 2:10
HakkaMin
Member



Joined: 2004/4/12
Posts: 60
Taiwan

 Re:

Some of you might be interested in hearing the 4-part teaching series by Steve Gregg on this topic. It's pretty thorough stuff. Just go to www.thenarrowpath.com and link to his "Tape Download Page." Then scroll down and find the series titled "What Are We To Make Of Israel?"


_________________
Gregg Dennington

 2005/9/15 2:46Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re: Replacement Theology?

OK, let's make a start.
What do we mean by 'replacement theology'?
Heb. 8:7 (KJVS)
For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

Heb. 10:9 (KJVS)
Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. I think this second quotation might almost serve as a definition for the word 'replacement'. This is not addition, expansion, absorption, or even fulfillment; this is 'replacement'. To remove one thing and put another thing in the 'place' where the first stood is pretty much what I understand 're-place-ment' to mean. ;-) This may only be a small step for a man... but can we agree it? Do we agree that 'something' has been 'replaced' here? If so, we can move on to the second question...

What has been replaced? I am not meaning to be patronising but just wanting to go a step at a time. A covenant has been replaced. Yes? What covenant has been replaced? The 'first covenant'! The 'first covenant' has been replaced. Everyone happy so far? ;-)

What was the 'first covenant'? It was the covenant that Moses mediated.Heb. 8:5 (KJVS)
Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
Heb. 8:6 (KJVS)
But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. Can I suggest that we read Heb 8:1-13 again, even if we know it well. There is a running contrast throughout this passage between two mediators and two covenants. The Jews of Christ's day seem to have had a fairly clear idea of where his teaching was going;John 9:28 (KJVS) Then they reviled him, and said, Thou art his disciple; but we are Moses’ disciples. This was heading for an 'either/or' conclusion.

If we are agreed that the second covenant replaces the first covenant we then need to examine the terms of the first covenant; its participants, its maintenance, its goals, its scope, its duration. I'll pause to see if we are together so far... ;-)


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/9/15 5:22Profile









 Re:

Hia Ron,
I just came on to post something, and didn't know you had posted already.

It was to thank Mike for making me go back to check page one again.

I 'thought' the link that Robert gave was to a website and seeing how I didn't have it to go to a site at the time, I didn't click on it.

So I went back to his link just a while ago.

TWENTY-SEVEN PAGES was it ? Oh my !!!

I don't think I can finish it. I could try, but parts were making me nauseous. No, not by any of our current members ... but just things that a guest was sort of doing .... Lord I've been down that road too long with some folks and it brought back some hard memories, so to speak.

If Robert could spell it out simply here, I for one would love him to displace the replacement belief, if that is his intent. I could try again another time to read that huge thread, but the other posters between you and Robert's talk were spinning this ol' head a bit.

I don't have it to do big posts cuz I'm still fighting a 3 wk. flu and stuff, and actually don't really want to get into this topic again.

I was put into it once, with HRM folks against me, and me being somewhat Jewish ... it was so sad.
Messianics and Christians at war ... Oh Lord, how heart breaking.

Like you said Ron. Lets see where or how this goes.

But I do believe the New replaced the Old covenant, of course.


Pray for peace Ron. This topic usually brings them in from no where and it normally gets heart breaking to see.

'Shalom' fer shur on here, Annie

 2005/9/15 6:07









 Re:

Replacement Theology basically teaches that the church has completely replaced Israel in God’s plan. Adherents of Replacement Theology believe that the Jews are no longer God’s chosen people and God does not have specific future plans for the nation of Israel. There are really only two views, either the Church is a continuation of Israel (Replacement Theology), or the Church is totally different and distinct from Israel (Dispensationalism / Premillennialism).

Replacement Theology teaches that the Church is the replacement for Israel and that the many promises made to Israel in the Bible are fulfilled in the Christian Church, not in Israel. So, the prophecies in Scripture concerning the blessing and restoration of Israel to the Promised Land are "spiritualized" or “allegorized” into promises of God's blessing for the Church. Major problems exist with this view, such as the continuing existence of the Jewish people throughout the centuries and especially with the revival of the modern state of Israel. If Israel has been condemned by God, and there is no future for the Jewish nation, how do we explain the supernatural survival of the Jewish people over the past 2000 years despite the many attempts to destroy them? How do we explain why and how Israel reappeared as a nation in the 20th century after not existing for 1900 years?

The view that Israel and the Church are different is clearly taught in the New Testament. In this view, the Church is completely different and distinct from Israel and the two are never to be confused or used interchangeably. We are taught from Scripture that the Church is an entirely new creation, that came into being on the Day of Pentecost and will continue until it is translated to Heaven at the Rapture (Ephesians 1:9-11). The Church has no relationship to the curses and blessings for Israel, the covenants, promises and warnings are valid only for Israel. Israel has been set aside in God's program during these past 2,000 years of dispersion.

After the Rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18) God will restore Israel to the primary focus of His plan. The first event at this time is the Great Tribulation (Revelation chapters 6-19). The world will be judged for rejecting Christ, while Israel is prepared through the trials of the Great Tribulation for the Second Coming of the Messiah. Now, when Christ does return to the earth, at the end of the Tribulation, Israel will be ready to receive Him. The remnant of Israel which survives the Tribulation will be saved and the Lord will establish His kingdom on this earth with the capital as Jerusalem. With Christ reigning as King, Israel will be the leading nation and representatives from all nations will come to Jerusalem to honor and worship the King. The Church will return with Christ and will reign with Him for a literal thousand years (Revelation 20:1-5).

Both the Old Testament and the New Testament support a Premillennial / Dispensational understanding of God's plan for humanity. Even so, the strongest support for Premillennialism is found in the clear teaching of Revelation 20:1-7, where it says, six times, that Christ's kingdom will last 1,000 years. After the Tribulation the Lord will return and establish His kingdom with the nation of Israel, Christ will reign over the whole earth with Jerusalem as His capital and Israel will be the leader of the nations. The Church will reign with Him for a literal thousand years.

Therefore, I do not believe Replacement Theology is correct or Biblical.

Krispy

 2005/9/15 8:05
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Hi Ron,

Quote:
I think this second quotation might almost serve as a definition for the word 'replacement'. This is not addition, expansion, absorption, or even fulfillment; this is 'replacement'. To remove one thing and put another thing in the 'place' where the first stood is pretty much what I understand 're-place-ment' to mean. This may only be a small step for a man... but can we agree it?



Absolutely. Even the Messianics I know would agree with this, but of course they would have an asterisk and a note to the apendix in the back. ;-)

Quote:
What has been replaced? I am not meaning to be patronising but just wanting to go a step at a time. A covenant has been replaced. Yes? What covenant has been replaced? The 'first covenant'! The 'first covenant' has been replaced. Everyone happy so far?



:-)

Quote:
If we are agreed that the second covenant replaces the first covenant we then need to examine the terms of the first covenant; its participants, its maintenance, its goals, its scope, its duration. I'll pause to see if we are together so far..



Together so far.

I think the point I would wish to make is not that the Jews are in any way valid in their futile attempt to serve God through Rabbinic Judaism- because they are not valid in this. For those unaware this is not the Judaism of the Old Testament- it is not even the grossly modified version of Judaism of the Intertestamental and later Temple period (397 BC to 70 CE). It is a new(er) religion that came about as the Temple was destroyed in 70 AD (CE) when the Pharisees fled to Jamnia (Yavneh). For those unfamiliar I will post a minor history of that next.

God Bless,

-Robert


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2005/9/15 8:31Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

[b][size=small]RABBI AKIBAS FALSE MESSIAH [/size][/b]
[size=xxsmall]Compiled by Robert Wurtz II [/size]

When it comes to understanding the significance of this particular segment, it is important to realize the impact that "one man" by the name of Rabbi Akiba Ben Joseph has had on modern Rabbinic Judaism and the Jews. I personally believe it would be next to impossible to overstate the negative impact this one man has had on the cause of God in the earth concerning His people the Jews. He is the closest “type” of the the false prophet of the book of Revelation that we have yet to see and his FALSE MESSIAH Simon Bar Kochba has been a “type” of the ANTI CHRIST to the Jews for almost 1900 years.

After 70 CE and the destruction of the Temple, Rome attempted to stifle the Jews desire to revolt by bringing in pagans to strengthen the non-Jewish population and by founding cities with names like Flavia Neapolis and Flavia Ioppe. There was also a heavy tax imposed by them called the "fiscus iudaicus" on the Jews of Israel and the diaspora. They also minted coins to remind the Jews that Jerusalem had been destroyed which read “Iudaea devicta” or more simply “Judah Defeated.” The Romans then recruited Yohanan ben Zakkai and the group of Pharisees that followed him to help them rule the Jews. This grew into a national government under the Romans. Yavneh, or Jamnia (In Greek), became the center of Rabbinic authority. Gamaliel II joined Zakkai and with the help of Rome ruled the people until they had put down ALL the other competing Pharasiac groups that would compete with them for influence and AUTHORITY.

However, from 90 CE onward rebellion and unrest continued to grow against Rome and ANYONE that competed with them for authority. The non-believing Jews were [url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=1954]CURSING[/url] the Nazerenes and other “heretical” sects (sects not in step with their Rabbinic cause) with the Birkat ha Minim and it would not be long until Rome likewise would be on the receiving end of the academy at Yavneh’s thirst for POWER and AUTHORITY.

Over the next 50 years a concerted effort to establise the total rule of the Rabbi’s was well towards being completed. Rabbi Akiba ultimately is responsible for driving the last nail into the coffin of the seperation of the Jewish Christians (Nazarenes) and the non-believing Jews (and all other competing groups as well). When Akiba exalted Bar Kochba to be Messiah the Nazarenes could not tolerate this and it spelled the end of that relationship. I believe it was an INTENTIONAL act on Akiba's part to ultimately seize authority and alienate the Nazarenes and their influence. it was also strategic in that is exceedingly made the Nazareens look like they were unpatriotic, etc..

According to McClintock and Strong “BarKochba, son of the star, or SIMEON BAR-COCHBA, was the Jewish false Messiah who applied to himself the prophecy of Balaam (Numbers 24:17), and incited the Jews to revolt against the emperor Hadrian (A.D. 130). He passed himself off for the Messiah, and his pretensions were supported by Akiba, the chief of the Sanhedrin. The better to deceive the credulous Jews, according to Jerome, he pretended to vomit flames, by means of a piece of lighted tow which he kept in his mouth. Bar-Kochba profited by the seditious state in which he found the Jews, and took Jerusalem in A.D. 132. He issued coins having on one side his own name, and on the other "Freedom of Jerusalem." (end of quote) He was a very violent man who was proported to once cut a finger off of thousands of his troops to keep them in subjection. I would characterize him as a throw back from the days of the Sacarii. He kept his troops in subjection by vile atrocities. Both him and Akiba were sorely judged for their behavior through unimaginable violent deaths (filleting, etc.)—but the Rabbi’s later exalted them as martyrs and heroes. They established an entire system of Judaism founded by a man who had deceived the people that Bar Kochba was the Messiah. This resulted in the death of Israel as the land of God’s people for centuries. After the Romans put their uprising down they renamed Jerusalem "Elia Capitolina" and renamed Israel PALISTINE as a mockery of them before the Philistines (Palistine is not what the land of Israel was called in the time of Jesus as many bible maps suggest). Thousands were killed and the Jews were evicted from the land until just about the last 100 years. Of all the mysteries in all my studies of the Jews, the greatest one of all is how so many non-believing Jews persecuted the Nazerenes, Ebionites, and Messianists because they siad they followed a “false Messiah” and yet they EXALT Akiba over Abraham, Moses, David, and God Almighty and he appointed the false messiah Bar Kochba. That is a hypocrisy that can’t possibly be explained.

Notes:

* No material from this lesson was taken from Internet sources.

* Quotes are labeled from their sources.

* Information is a synthesis of lectures and particularly excerpts from Daniel Gruber's bold and revealing book "Rabbi Akiba's Messiah" (The Origins of Rabbinic Authority). I recommend this book to everyone interested in the issue of why modern Jews do not believe in Christ as their Messiah. It is an integeral part of understanding so key issues. It is published by:

Elijah Publishing
Box 776
Hanover, NH 03755


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2005/9/15 8:33Profile





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