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Discussion Forum : General Topics : What Al-Quaeda wants...

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Kalle
Member



Joined: 2005/9/8
Posts: 9


 Re:

Rookie, I am sorry to hear you think that way. I am not really interested in political debates, I am full time ministry, however it sounds like you would be happier living in Afghanistan, why don't you go live there? Then you would not have to be bitter in this country of "evil money" the country you live in. If your going to be a traitor to your country then your country will be better off with out you in it. Your bitterness has roots that God can remove, the only question is whether you will open your heart to Christ for that to happen.
Carl

 2005/9/16 16:55Profile









 Re:

oh my Carl,

To call Rookie or any other brother in the Lord, a "traitor", is very bad language coming from anyone, nonetheless, someone in full time ministry. A "traitor" is a word I think you and maybe some others may need to look up in a good dictionary, because I've heard it here before.


No nation is perfect, and Rookie happens to be a very good brother and strong in the Lord, as far as all I've read.

I think you're being a bit unChristian in your assessment, words to Rookie and may be putting patriotism above "reason". That can be just as dangerous as what you claim against this brother.

My country "right or wrong", is not Biblical.

We are not perfect, we kill babies and lots of other type things, so to tell Rookie to 'get out', if he is just exercising the rights, that our fore-fathers died to put in writing for us, is not good. We aren't perfect as a nation.
No nation is. He has a right to his opinion, without being told to "get out" and have his motives and heart judged, when you barely know him.


Yes, we love that we still have some freedom, and that God allowed us to be born here and not in China, but to put patriotism above brotherly love, and from a Minister, is scaring me.

I'm sorry.
Love in Christ.

Annie

 2005/9/16 18:27
GaryE
Member



Joined: 2005/4/26
Posts: 376
Mifflinburg, Pennsylvania

 Re:

Actually, traitor is the word for it. How many times do I hear the Liberal speakers tell us about the harolot church on SI? Talk about false accusers, look in the mirror. If you don't want to be loyal to your country why don't you go down with Chavez or Castro?


2Ti 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.

2Ti 3:2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,

2Ti 3:3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,

2Ti 3:4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;

2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.


Paul used the word traitors above along with false accusers. I personally don't want to have part with your slandering talk either. Your backbitting of the president is nothing but evil. And this constant talebearing that goes on this forum from the left is not of God.

Quite a few years ago I was at a chapel that someone was telling about a whole bunch of bad things that was going on in the churches. Everything that person said was probably true and I was in agreement with him. After the person walked out, the Chaplain said to me that the person who had been saying these things had something wrong in his life. As soon as the Chaplain said this, I knew it was true. That person was finding all this fault in others life and the real problem was his own life.

Ezekiel chapter 34 speaks of sheep that butt with the head the other sheep. They muddy the water for the other sheep and tread down the grain of the other sheep. Did you guys ever think that maybe by slamming each other around there may be other people who are in need of something spiritual instead of how wrong you think everone else is. Maybe some of the Lord's lost sheep will wonder onto the next post your writing on. Do you really want to be spreading that left wing poison around here, or would you rather be speaking in the Spirit instead?

In Christ,
GaryE


_________________
Gary Eckenroth

 2005/9/16 19:15Profile









 Re:

Phew wo GaryE, you're really getting hot here and in the case of "traitor" are not giving the proper definition here at all.


I for one am a staunch conservative who has voted "Republican" for more years than most have been alive here.

So #1 , the sin of "judging" is here.

#2, in that verse, the "traitors" that Paul was referring to, were those that Jesus mentioned in Matt 24 and elsewhere's, "where brother would turn in brother" to "the authorities" ... so I think, once again .... when patriotism goes "beyond what is written", it can become very dangerous, as it did under Hitler.

It was the Church in Germany that was fooled and turned the other way and lots of other sad facts.

We are never to follow anything in politics like blind sheep to the slaughter and God even commands that we "watch".

As long as someone doesn't say "kill" or something "violent", then their "opinion" is freely permitted under our Bill of Rights, that if you take that from the people ... you've lost it all,,,, even for yourself to be able to post what you have.

But we are to have our minds in "Heavenly Places"... and love our "Brothers" to the point of being willing to die for them.

I didn't see Rookie slam the President ... but he's allowed to disagree with war or other policies, just as I disagree with all of the blood on our hands because of our ABORTIONS.

You are misreading Rookie, as you misread me and that is "muddying up the water", more than anything here and you are being very hard here and not scriptural in your feelings.

Please allow others to have their say.

I am "loyal to my country". I am a Veteran of almost 5 yr.s in.

But if I don't agree with a policy, can I not say it ?


Please rethink what you are saying and again I recommend you read lots of Richard Wurmbrand and Dietrich Bonhoffer (I'm not spelling Bonhoffer correctly, I don't think.)


His Love to you GaryE.

Annie

 2005/9/16 19:34
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re: living in Babylon

Part of the volatility here I believe is that we prefer to discuss principles that few of us have the ability to live out. I admit in myself that my principles are often at odds with my practice.

For instance I would want to be a pacifist...unless the moment should come when a predator break into my house.

I would want to be a generous man...until someone habitually steals from my children.

Likewise I would want to leave politics to the world, yet I can not in good conscience leave the dirty work, the unpleasant reality, the necessary machinations to those I claim are unprincipled and unenlightened. I would feel like a spiritual dandy, looking down on them even as they get mud on their souls so that my soul can remain clean.

The issue is not whether America, or any nation is a "righteous" nation. That is a false discussion point from the start. The issue, for me is what kind of world will our children have to grow up in. Maybe this is what Bonhoeffer was seeing when he quipped, "Those without sin are perhaps the most guilty of all."

So, do I think politics, the marketplace, and men fighting for dominance over one another are nothing more the system of Babylon? I most certainly do. This is why I can't understand Christians who aren't willing to participate in the scut work, disdaining other men who wade in the sewer so that they may be clean.

In the end, our own purity from the world system is a daydream. We are all standing in the sewer. Every time you buy a television from Wal-Mart or fill your tank with petrol you are shaping the course of world events, laying another brick towards some conclusion or inevitable outcome. And, someday in the future when that outcome is reported through that television, or in that car radio on the way to work, there will be Christians who will be listening and telling themselves they had nothing to do with this world's system.

MC


_________________
Mike Compton

 2005/9/16 20:29Profile









 Re: a heavenly country

Perhaps we just don't 'get' what God is after from us. Perhaps the idea that we have to have created a suitable place for Christ to return to, is pure fleshly thinking.... He didn't come the first time to a 'suitable place' (a stable).

It occurred to me, reading Compton's post, that I once heard 'patriotism' and 'nationalism' preached against, on the strength of the phrase 'from above'..... That is, where our hearts are supposed to be set already because of our continual investment in the treasure there, and, that all the nations and patriotism of the world can be rolled together in one phrase 'from below' (or, as Jesus said 'from beneath').


John 3:31
He that cometh [u]from above[/u] is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.

John 8:23
And he said unto them, Ye are [b]from beneath[/b]; [u]I am from above[/u]: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

John 19:11
Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power against me, except it were given thee [u]from above[/u]: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.

James 1:17
Every good gift and every perfect gift is [u]from above[/u], and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

James 3:
15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.
16 For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.
17 But [u]the wisdom that is from above[/u] is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.


Quote:
The issue is not whether America, or any nation is a "righteous" nation. That is a false discussion point from the start.

In the end, our purity from the world system is our own fantasy though. We are all standing in the sewer. Every time you buy a television from Wal-Mart or fill your tank with petrol you are shaping the course of world events, laying another brick towards some type of inevitable outcome. And, someday in the future when the outcome is reported through that television, or in that car radio on the way to work, [b]there will be Christians who will be listening and telling themselves they had nothing to do with this world[/b].

Part of the volatility here I believe is that we prefer to discuss principles that few of us have the ability to live out. I admit in myself that my principles are often at odds with my practice.

For instance I would want to be a pacifist...unless the moment should come when a predator break into my house.

I would want to be a generous man...until someone habitually steals from my children.

Likewise I would want to leave politics to the world, yet I can not in good conscience leave the dirty work, the hard struggles, to those I claim are unprincipled and unenlightened.

Compton - I wanted to quote your whole post - a small masterpiece of cogent thought - and I know we've discussed this previously.... but, I still wonder if, in the light of us not being 'of' this world, we are just missing completely what God wants from us, and everytime we have the idea we can join in a world system, we are kidding ourselves.

Isn't there a way we can live in this world, not 'of' this world, and not cumbered by world politics, simply ready to face the music, should we be called upon to do so.... by which I mean, [i][b]die[/b][/i] for Christ rather than compromise?

 2005/9/16 21:17
Kalle
Member



Joined: 2005/9/8
Posts: 9


 Re:

I am going to say this and then I am off this site, you all seem to need a place to argue your beliefs, but when Rookie starts making comments that justify Terrorism and undermines the country he lives in and then signs it in the name of Christ, and several of you are taking sides with him and telling me I am not Christian like, all I can do is pray for you cause I have ten or eleven sermons I could preach to you about that, obviously that won't work. Thanks for judging me and telling me to not judge! To bad a web site like this can't work without all the twisting you folks do. I agree with the one guy that said, this is not the right place to let your laundry hang out to dry, there just might actually be someone looking here for Jesus. And yes, I call him a traitor, because our country is at war, and he is justifing the enemies action. Hope you find better converstaions, Bye, Carl

 2005/9/16 22:05Profile









 Re:

I don't know.

I just read Rookie's post again, and for the life of me, I can't see where he's saying if "justifying Terrorism and undermining the country".

I still think we need to maybe look at ourselves more closely than to tell folks to "get out".

And we need to see who judged who first.

And I think the majority would say, this web site, is trying really hard to work with the worse of us ... and in this case, I speak of myself.

And from what I've seen in this past week... the whole gang here are pretty good people to grow with, if we just not be so quick to judge first.


That was a nice calm response Compton, and I respect that in people.

And Amen Dorcas.


Love !

 2005/9/16 22:31
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re:

I forgot about this thread and only now see the damage that I may have done. Sorry for the strong feelings that have come about by my thoughts. I do not consider myself to be Liberal or Conservative. I find no value in labels. I for the most part do not feel led to point out what is wrong Scripturally with those who label themselves Liberal. It is very clear how they are subject to the depravity of men.

What I do endeavor to do is to point out circumstances which appear to have merit but still are subject to fallen man. Nationalism blinds because Scripture teaches that pride causes one to choose to remain blind. The spirit of pride is of Satan. Listen to Scripture when it speaks of the nation of Babylon and it's leader.

Is. 14:3 It shall come to pass in the day the LORD gives you rest from your sorrow, and from your fear and the hard bondage in which you were made to serve, 4 that you will take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say:
“How the oppressor has ceased,
The golden city ceased!
5 The LORD has broken the staff of the wicked,
The scepter of the rulers;
6 He who struck the people in wrath with a continual stroke,
He who ruled the nations in anger,
Is persecuted and no one hinders.
7 The whole earth is at rest and quiet;
They break forth into singing.
8 Indeed the cypress trees rejoice over you,
And the cedars of Lebanon,
Saying, “Since you were cut down,
No woodsman has come up against us.’
9 “Hell from beneath is excited about you,
To meet you at your coming;
It stirs up the dead for you,
All the chief ones of the earth;
It has raised up from their thrones
All the kings of the nations.
10 They all shall speak and say to you:
“Have you also become as weak as we?
Have you become like us?
11 Your pomp is brought down to Sheol,
And the sound of your stringed instruments;
The maggot is spread under you,
And worms cover you.’
12 “How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!
13 For you have said in your heart:
“I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest sides of the north;
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.’
15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol,
To the lowest depths of the Pit.
16 “Those who see you will gaze at you,
And consider you, saying:
‘Is this the man who made the earth tremble,
Who shook kingdoms,
17 Who made the world as a wilderness
And destroyed its cities,
Who did not open the house of his prisoners?’
18 “All the kings of the nations,
All of them, sleep in glory,
Everyone in his own house;
19 But you are cast out of your grave
Like an abominable branch,
Like the garment of those who are slain,
Thrust through with a sword,
Who go down to the stones of the pit,
Like a corpse trodden underfoot.
20 You will not be joined with them in burial,
Because you have destroyed your land
And slain your people.
The brood of evildoers shall never be named.
21 Prepare slaughter for his children
Because of the iniquity of their fathers,
Lest they rise up and possess the land,
And fill the face of the world with cities.”
22 “For I will rise up against them,” says the LORD of hosts,
“And cut off from Babylon the name and remnant,
And offspring and posterity,” says the LORD.
23 “I will also make it a possession for the porcupine,
And marshes of muddy water;
I will sweep it with the broom of destruction,” says the LORD of hosts.
24 The LORD of hosts has sworn, saying,
“Surely, as I have thought, so it shall come to pass,
And as I have purposed, so it shall stand:
25 That I will break the Assyrian in My land,
And on My mountains tread him underfoot.
Then his yoke shall be removed from them,
And his burden removed from their shoulders.
26 This is the purpose that is purposed against the whole earth,
And this is the hand that is stretched out over all the nations.
27 For the LORD of hosts has purposed,
And who will annul it?
His hand is stretched out,
And who will turn it back?”

Is. 14:28 This is the burden which came in the year that King Ahaz died.
29 “Do not rejoice, all you of Philistia,
Because the rod that struck you is broken;
For out of the serpent’s roots will come forth a viper,
And its offspring will be a fiery flying serpent.
30 The firstborn of the poor will feed,
And the needy will lie down in safety;
I will kill your roots with famine,
And it will slay your remnant.
31 Wail, O gate! Cry, O city!
All you of Philistia are dissolved;
For smoke will come from the north,
And no one will be alone in his appointed times.”
32 What will they answer the messengers of the nation?
That the LORD has founded Zion,
And the poor of His people shall take refuge in it.

What do we see here in Scripture? What nature does the king of Babylon take on? He himself became like Lucifer who wanted to be like God. Pride always, always comes from the sin that entered the earth.


I would encourage all to study Scripture that speaks to the kings of this world.

The nation of Israel in the OT suffered over 75% of the time under the rule of wicked kings. Just go through 1 and 2 Kings, 1 and 2 Chronicles and list what Scripture teaches about the kings of that time.

Scripture teaches that many of these kings lead the nation into wickedness.

Read the book of Daniel, what does it say of the nations and governments that did and will come to dominate the world?

I too suffered from the religion of nationalism. I too struggled with always asking why, why do the men and women who rule allow evil to grow. Then one day God gave me peace. I finally accepted the doctrine of total depravity. The peace came because I knew at that moment there was no longer hope for this world.

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2005/9/21 12:57Profile
mloaks
Member



Joined: 2004/5/13
Posts: 129
So. MD, USA

 Re:

Rookie, yr no rookie.
You got nothing to fret. There will always be 'Better dead than red', or 'My country, right or wrong' Christains who just have to always be Martha, instead of Mary. :-o

Isolationists, UN haters, Pat Robinson asking for Chavez' head, etc., will never serve America's interests. And the give Al Qaida more ammo and fuel...

These guys were preaching during our slave days, jim Crow times, Dred Scott, 'Nam, and the McCarthy era. Test the fruits...

 2005/9/23 16:56Profile





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