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 Beauty in Roman Catholicism

I've been looking for a place to go on retreat during what promises to be to be a trying time in my life, starting 7 Oct.

There happens to be an AoG "honorBound" retreat, but that just doesn't sing to my heart.

What my spirit is really crying out for is a comtemplative monastic sort of retreat, and I was lead to place that looks just what I'm looking for, and it happens to be a Benedictine monastery.

The whole point of this post is that I found a paper on "lectio divina".

Quote:
A VERY ANCIENT art, practiced at one time by all Christians, is the technique known as lectio divina - a slow, contemplative praying of the Scriptures which enables the Bible, the Word of God, to become a means of union with God. This ancient practice has been kept alive in the Christian monastic tradition, and is one of the precious treasures of Benedictine monastics and oblates. Together with the Liturgy and daily manual labor, time set aside in a special way for lectio divina enables us to discover in our daily life an underlying spiritual rhythm. Within this rhythm we discover an increasing ability to offer more of ourselves and our relationships to the Father, and to accept the embrace that God is continuously extending to us in the person of his Son Jesus Christ.



That just set me on fire, and it happens to be something which originated out of the roman church.

let me give you the whole URL:

[url=http://www.valyermo.com/ld-art.html]Lectio Divina[/url]

My point of the whole post is this, within the roman church, I'll bet there are more things we can appropriate for worship that point us towards the Lordship of Jesus Christ, and the worship of God......away with popery...yes!! away with the worship of idols...yes!! away with priestcraft and superstition...yes!!

But I feel , that their are beautiful elements of communion that we can keep, AND that their are those WITHIN this church, who love Jesus with all their hearts.

My spirit tells me if we work overtime to shriek at how apostate and hellbound they are, we play into the hands of the enemy who wishes to divide the WHOLE Bride of Christ. I believe we should love and embrace all brethern [i]who love Jesus.[/i]


The Lectio Divina is about loving Jesus.


I forward my thoughts in love.

 2005/9/13 14:41
Tex_Hill
Member



Joined: 2005/6/14
Posts: 11
Bonham, TX

 Re: Beauty in Roman Catholicism

So should we accept Mormons as "Christians" since they claim they believe in "Christ", even though by their own teachings Christ and Satan are brothers?

Catholics may love Christ, but that doesn't negate the fact that they believe that His death at Calvary was insufficient to pay their sin debt. Why else do they continue to "sacrifice" Christ in the eucharist when He died once and for all in order that we may be saved. Why do Catholics believe that they must suffer here on earth or in Purgatory to pay for their sins when the Bible says that our works are as filthy rags? After all, didn't Jesus say "It is finished" on the cross?

Is there beauty in Catholicism? Sure, but the harlot has beauty as well.


_________________
Noel

 2005/9/13 15:56Profile
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re: Beauty in Roman Catholicism

I took a look at the site and it seems very intriguing. I have to agree that there is a need to slow down, get rid of all the hectic voices within us and around us, and be silent before the Lord.

Just like attending church, or any religious activity, this can be either helpful or unhelpful – the difference lies within your own hearts. If you are truly seeking the Lord, he will reveal himself to you, for he has promised to do so. If entering this experience is what you need, then God can open the doors for you to take part.

The main thing that I would be concerned about is if the leaders try to take control of your mind, will, and emotions. That is not necessarily a fault of the program but of those who lead it. As you know, that happens in any church – including our evangelical churches. It is always wrong to usurp the place of the Spirit. On the other side of that issue, I must add, that no one can control us unless we let them. That is why we must submit to the Lord first and formost.

I agree with you that the RC has many helpful forms of worship that Protestants have tossed out because of fear and prejudice.

Here is another thought that has been true for my own life: Sometimes God puts us in unfamiliar territory just to undo some of the patterns, traditions, and viewpoints that we are stuck in. (but don’t realize) That helps us to see things differently, more objectively perhaps. That is why changing denominations can be helpful.

Does that help?
Diane


_________________
Diane

 2005/9/13 15:58Profile









 Re:

I dont know enough about what Neil is talking about to offer any opinions about it. I would be very cautious of anything that comes from the RCC. Deception is beautiful... if it wasnt people wouldnt fall for it.

Not saying what Neil is seeking is wrong. Just use caution, my brother.

Krispy

 2005/9/13 16:56
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re:

Krispy and Tex_Hill,
Neil has asked for thoughts on a specific organization and has also included a web link.
Why don't you read it and make comments on any aspects of the article that you may be concerned about. That would be more helpful than blanket judgments against the entire denomination.
Diane


_________________
Diane

 2005/9/13 17:39Profile









 Re: Beauty

2Co 11:1 Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me.

2Co 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

2Co 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

2Co 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive [i]another spirit[/i], which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

Brother Neil, if their "Gospel" is Wrong, (even if it were called "protestant"), then they have a 'different' Jesus and a 'different' Spirit .... but counterfeit spirits "feel" good, 'look' good, 'seem good', and that is why they carry such 'magnetism', because they 'are' or 'appear' [i]spiritual[/i], but[u] in the end[/u], we are deceived .... guaranteed.

You will either come back feeling more of a 'distance' from your "Bible Only" (protestant) brothers OR you will hurry to be back with them, 'quickly'.

Nee, for just one said, "if a man thinks that he can't be deceived, he already is."

Lucifer stood behind God's throne, and was created to bring God 'Glory' in Heaven and to lead the other Angels in "Worship" to the One and Only True GOD ... so if anyone has "been there, done that", and sure knows how to make it "feel" and 'look' right, it's Satan.
Lucifer was 'also' described as having "beauty". The "beauty of deception" or the deception of beauty.

Yes, they 'will' come 'in His Name' and say He [u]is[/u] "Christ" ... "Luk 21:8 And HE said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for [u]many[/u] shall come in My Name, saying, [u]I Am[/u] [i]Christ[/i]; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them."

And about this 'merged religious system' of these last days, He said, "Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. "

Yehôshûa‛/Jesus IS THE 'TRUTH' .... where the Full Truth of His Sacrifice [u]is not[/u] then HIS "true" SPIRIT Cannot Be, because the True Spirit of God will ONLY testify to Truth and ALL the Truth, about the Son and His redemptive work, ETC.
The 'Holy Spirit', is called The Spirit of TRUTH and HE cannot endorse error nor dwell in it's 'midst'.

Not saying all Catholics are not saved ... but they also need to "come out". As do Protestants who do not "walk in TRUTH".

I just think you've been abused & spiritually [i]wounded[/i] far too much from some 'brethren' (Prov 18:14). You may come off 'sounding' hard, but God knows your heart is more 'tender' than the vast majority out there. Wounds can make us more 'susceptible to 'other things' Neil.

And the Lord said, Satan hath desired to sift you as wheat, but HE is praying for you.

Stand on these verses and make them your signature if you have to ...

Phi 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

Phi 3:9 And be found in him, [u]not having mine own righteousness[/u], which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Phi 3:10 [u]That I may KNOW Him, and the power of HIS resurrection, and the fellowship of HIS sufferings, being made conformable unto HIS death[/u];

Phi 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

Phi 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

Phi 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

Phi 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.



Because I've been there with the Catholic mystique, etc. and I love you brother Neil, though I'd sworn off posting, I broke that, because it was you.

Please pray on this more and 'Sanctuary' with & [u]in[/u] HIM,
in His Love.

Annie



 2005/9/13 17:59









 Re:

"Tex Hill",

did you read the WHOLE paper on Lectio Divina?

thats the main thrust of what I was speaking of; the practice of "Divine Reading" of Scripture in an individual and a group context.

Within that paper on the practice of Divine Reading, there is nothing on romanism, it is all Christ-centric......did you read that paper?

My theory is that there are elements within different churches that we can appropriate.....the episcopal churches have GLORIOUS stained glass, the quakers have "worship sharing", etc etc.

What I do not want (if possible) to happen is this thread become yet another rancorous diatribe against the roman church, I'm looking for the Jesus within an element of worship called the "lectio divina".

 2005/9/13 21:29









 Krispy

here's a suggestion....go read the paper on "Lectio Divina"...then you will know enough to comment


http://www.valyermo.com/ld-art.html

 2005/9/13 21:37









 Our dear Annie

Bless you bless you blessyou

Quote:
Because I've been there with the Catholic mystique, etc. and I love you brother Neil, though I'd sworn off posting, I broke that, because it was you.




I'm a Jew, there is no mystique to me about the roman church, too many of my kin have been killed, or forced to convert at the hands of the roman church. But since I recieved Christ in my heart, I have no fear of man, any man, or of any church....nor do I hate them anymore....

What I really like about the lectio divina is that it helps one to embrace Christ in a way that is supernatural and mysterious, high priestly.....anything that helps us put on the clothes of a high priest carrying prayers and supplications up to the Throne of God, I love......anything that we can use to plumb the mystery of Christ, I love.

These new agers know NOTHING, they think they have the corner on mysticism, or the Mystery of God...they have NOTHING....

oh Annie, to be caught up in high places with God, who could ask for more?


Thats what sickens me about these properity doctrine preachers......I rather be kneeling alone on a cold hard stone floor swept up in Jesus' embrace, than in some converted sports arena listening to a bright shiny preacher who looks like a Fortune 500 CEO telling me how I can have everything I want from God.......where's the mystery in that?

like Art Katz said, 'whens the last time you left a meeting speechless coz you came face to face with the Living God?' (I paraphrase)


But thanks , dear one, for your concern that I get swept up into some seductive apostasy.

As long as one stays steeped in prayer, stays in the Word, and keeps their thoughts FIXED on Jesus, one can never go wrong.

He is so glorious.

 2005/9/13 21:51
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re: Good question Neil

Neil isn’t asking us to consider the RCC gospel. He is asking us to appreciate specific aspects of their spiritual life and practice. We Protestants may not like mystery…we like our theology to fit together like gear and cogs that tick along like Newton’s laws.

This worked great during the past 200 years, but is showing itself insufficient in an age where people no longer have faith in Newtonian physics, and even modern secularism. We sometimes act as if the Gospel is a machine that can be disassembled and explained in a technical manual. Yet 21st century people are wondering if man can know anything from mere apologetics. Not even science is foolproof anymore...this is a new day of opportunity for the Church.

So, if we must use phobic words like “mysticism” or “harlot” then let’s do so only for ideas that are heretical to the gospel, not our personal sensibilities. I don’t see any problem for Neil if he finds that reading and listening to the scriptures via the Lectio Divina method fruitful. It sounds like Neil wants to immerse himself in fellowship with the Word, and to bathe in the words of God. "“Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you”

Personally I feel we place too much emphasis on volume reading…i.e. through the bible in a year and such. I can remember spending months meditating the first few verses in John 1, going over and over them trying to emerge past the text into the reality they contained. Admittedly I could not ever do so but having utterly failed did enable me to see that Christ is both knowable and unknowable.(divine and unsearchable) Within my rediscovery of the enigmatic mystery of Jesus, there is awe and worship of Him. (edit: eternal, non created...)

If vital doctrine is not being challenged then I say it sounds like a blessed refuge Neil. We shouldn’t think God’s arm is so short that he can’t reach into the various expressions of Christian faith to touch mankind. Jesus saved even during the dark ages.

Christianity is older then the 18th century! If we are only willing to go back as far as Wesley then maybe we are spiritual dandies unable to face the world as it is. We not only have the legacy of the Roman church to dig through, but also the eastern orthodox, the Celtic, and the South American traditions. In a few hundred years, should the Lord tarry, we will have new Christian traditions from southern hemisphere nations and Asia. Are we willing to believe that all of these peoples of different cultual expressions can remain of one Spirit? It’s too bad that the word “ecunemical” has come to mean heretical because Christ is coming back for one Church and they all won’t be Pentacostals.

These other church traditions may not have the important sola fide doctrines that we hold to, but they have noble merits in other areas such as spiritual poverty, piety, and devotion that the 21st century American church is in sore need of. We are not wrong in our focus, but we are incomplete in our spectrum…Neil’s post is a welcome recognition that there is more at the table of the Lord then the spiritual hamburgers and milkshakes being marketed by mainstream Christianity.

I know much of what I said here can be misconstrued...for what it's worth let me confess my belief that the finest hour for the church (western) was during the reformation, just so you know where my head and heart is. (I'm old school)Yet, I do not think it was the only hour of the church...

MC


_________________
Mike Compton

 2005/9/14 0:11Profile





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