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Graftedbranc
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 Re:

You may have responded to my post before I added this addendum:

Quote:
I will also add that I attended the Bible School of Joseph Carroll, author of "How to Worship Jesus Christ" and considered him to be of all men the most godly and the most spiritual. He was a missionary to missionaries in the far east, a "deeper life" teacher and ministered to the spiritual life of some of the great servants of Christ. He labored with A.W. Tozer, was a frequent speaker at the Keswick convention, a friend of Martin Lloyd Jones, and I sat for two years daily under his ministry. Yet after many years the Lord showed me he just was not right on some things. As I went on I began to realize that He, Tozer, and Lloyd Jones, and Watchman Nee whom I also admired were not in aggrement on many things, yet I had to admit that they each had fruitful ministries and were full of Christ. Finally I came to the Lord and realized that the Lord Himself is the only final source of Truth and the Scritpures the only authority. When I came to the Lord in this way, the scritpures came alive and I began to live unto Him and not unto any man or his teaching. Yet I appreciate the Lords work and His teaching in all of them and gain from them.

 2005/11/13 20:05Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
As to Stephen Kaung, I am in the Stream of the Lord's recovery.


Could you define this statement please? Is this in the theology of witness lee? and the recovery movement?


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2005/11/13 20:48Profile
Graftedbranc
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 Re: the Lord's Recovery

Yes, I have been meeting with the local church in my city for about 3 years. The local churches are the fruit of the ministry of Watchamn Nee and Witness Lee. Stephen Kaung was also I belive a co-worker with Watchman Nee at one time.

Graftedbranch

 2005/11/13 21:14Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
Again, no. The umbrage is in a certain rudeness to be blunt about it. There is a sense of family here and that is not in any fashion inclusive\exclusive but just what we have experienced from time to time here...



IN a broader sense, while I am sure there is a "sense of family" and I don't belittle that. There is in effect a "greater" family. That is the 'body of Christ" of which if we are members, we are all brothers and sisters with the Divine Life within us as our commonality.

Surely our oneness is not based on our gathering around this or that person or preacher, teaching, or doctrinal system. It is based in our union in spirit with the crucified and resurrected Christ. As Paul says, "Did Paul die for you?' Is Christ divided?. "

For sure it takes a little time to get to know this and to recognize this in one another but we all have to take our place as members of the One Body and members one of another. And this is not based on any orginization or any "group" or "who has the most seniority or been here the longest" but rather based in Life. That is we share the One Life of the One Lord in the One Faith in the One Spirit.

On this basis we are to "recieve one another" and that not to doubtful disputation.

Graftedbranch

 2005/11/13 21:32Profile
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 Re: Introducing myself

Just as matter of where I am comming from, I will say that I regard the ministry of Lenard Ravenhill and A. W. Tozer among the highest in the West. I will add that I believe T. Austin Sparks was the highest as far as Light on the Spiritual Life. As regards each mans devotion and Love for Christ and commitment to the truth, I could not begin to even speculate on who is the "highest". They were all Servants of Jesus Christ and wonderful ministers of Christ.

But, T. Austin Sparks upon his departing from and separating from the ministery of the recovery in the east testified later that on his return flight from Tiawan, "he lost the presence of God in the way which He had it before and never recovered it in the same way."

I believe the ongoing work of the Spirit in recovering the New Testament revelation and the practice of the church life is unique in the Lord's recovery. I believe Watchman Nee opened up the mine shaft of the riches of Christ in a way that was unpresedented since the early church. It has grown, suffered, been matured and multiplied. It has stood the test of time and is deeper and richer and more intensified, and broader today than it ever was over its 70 year history.

And I have come to believe that the recovery today is in the same stream and operating out of the same mine shaft. The level of life and light in the Lord's recovery today is in my experience, observation, and according to much prayer, study, and seeking the Lord, the highest I have seen anywere else in this age. And I have been privelaged to sit under the teaching of some of the greats.

The points I set forth are simply the key points in the Recovery today. I beieve they exemplify the kernal of the Divine Revelation and God's New Testament economy.

Tozer, Ravenhill, and others like them were tremendous men, full of Christ. But they were products of western Christianity which is steaped in tradition gained over many hundred's of years.

I believe God has in His soverignity chosen in recovering the pure New Testament church gone "outside the camp" to China, a land with a limited Christian history and the traditions of the west are only "imported". That is it was furtile soil for His work in this age. And through the crucible of testing, of the fires of persecution, accusations, misrepresentations, slanders, and setbacks, has refined it, purified it, and established it, and matured it in an unprecedented way.

T. Austin Sparks, a godly and spiritual man, yet could not get past his western tradition as can be seen in the accounts of the interaction he had with the saints in Tiawan in the 1950s. (See "the Vision of the Age" published by Living Steam Ministries - "www.lsm.org")

And in this country (the US), It was the church established by T. Austin Sparks which initually invited Witness Lee to the US to minister to them which after his departure back to Tiawan, came to the conviction to take the ground of the Church and invited Lee back. They became the first "local church" in the US. That was in 1962. From there today there are over 300 in the US and 3000 world wide including 300 in Russia with full time training centers in 9 countries.

The points I put forward reflect something of the "High peak of the Divine Revelation" which is just the consumate essense of the New Testament. I believe these things are lacking in most of Christianity today especially in the west. But they are the heart of the Lord's ministry in the East through both Nee and Lee and those who are the co-workers today.

Ravenhill labored in Christ to revive and to restore modern Christianity to Christ. Nee and the Lord's recovery are a work apart and outside the camp. They regarded the mixture and degradation in the denominations as Babylon and followed the Lord to "come out of her my people". While regarding themselves one with those believers in the traditional institutions, they regarded the Lord's work to build up the body of Christ as Local churches with no other head than Christ Himself and no other Name but the Name of the Lord Jesus as simply the church in their locality.

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 2005/11/15 15:40Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
And in this country (the US), It was the church established by T. Austin Sparks which initually invited Witness Lee to the US to minister to them which after his departure back to Tiawan, came to the conviction to take the ground of the Church and invited Lee back. They became the first "local church" in the US. That was in 1962. From there today there are over 300 in the US and 3000 world wide including 300 inRrussia with full time training centers in 9 countries.



I am not completely comfortable with this movement and I am not sure if mr sparks himself condoned the ministry of witness lee in any way? possibly in the beginning of his ministry but as of now the movement headed by witness lee has gone in different directions.

Here are a few excerpts describing the "recovery" movement:

"A disciple of Watchman Nee, Witness Lee founded his assembly movement in Los Angeles some forty-five years ago. Since that time he and his followers have been setting up numerous gatherings throughout the country. Formerly, he was active in China and Taiwan.

The large and noisy ruling assembly from which Lee governs all is titled "The Church in Los Angeles." He maintains that God is present only in the local assemblies--theirs, that is. All others are outside the will and blessing of God. He stresses that Christian "victory" is not gained by teaching, doctrine, or prayer, but by just four words of praise. The assemblies often repeat in unison, either spoken, sung, or shouted: "O Lord, Amen, Hallelujah!"

I am not wanting to go into detail but I would definetly say that what is happening these churches is not [b]only[/b] what God is doing. God is much bigger then this. I am glad that you are being blessed by many of the teachers such as ravenhill, sparks, nee, but I would be careful to throw concepts around such as "recovery" and that being what you are involved in [b]is[/b] the remenant of God.

It would be like me saying that people that fellowship on SermonIndex ARE the remenant of God in this world. Even though there are some remenant believers here I could never make that type of statement.


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 2005/11/15 16:01Profile
jimp
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 Re:

bro ravenhill always told those who knew him to not believe everything any preacher said; but seek the scriptures for the truth. he did not have nail prints in his hands either. jimp

 2005/11/15 16:34Profile
Graftedbranc
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 Re:

Quote:
The large and noisy ruling assembly from which Lee governs all is titled "The Church in Los Angeles." He maintains that God is present only in the local assemblies--theirs, that is. All others are outside the will and blessing of God. He stresses that Christian "victory" is not gained by teaching, doctrine, or prayer, but by just four words of praise. The assemblies often repeat in unison, either spoken, sung, or shouted: "O Lord, Amen, Hallelujah!



Lee, once in an address was encouraging all the saints to function in the meetings of the church. Many saints are reluctant to speak in a large gathering. He said," at least, if nothing else, you can exercise your spirit to say, "Amen, Oh Lord. Hallelujah". From this those who oppose have construed him to suggest that this is the hight of Christian experience which is as far fetched and out of context one could imagine.

What is taught which is according to the Bible is that the believer is one spirit with the crucified and risen Christ (1 cor 6:17). That is, when we believe into Him by repenting and calling on His Name, we are regenerated and indwelt by the Spirit of Christ. This is a reality and not merely a doctrine, or a teaching. Therefore Victory in the Christian life comes through the exericise of our spirit in contact with the Living Lord and not merely by learning doctrines and filling our head up. Though we need the correct teaching and doctrine, Victory is not by mental knowlege but by the Lord Himself, In this way he encouraged the Saints to exercise their spirit in calling on the Lord, Saying "Amen" when the truth is spoken and when we are in agreement in prayer, and Hallaluah in rejoicing in our wonderful Lord and Saviour.

The issue is the exercise of the spirit and the functioning of all the members in the meetings of the Saints. When someone says, "Thank you Lord Jesus that you are God manifest in the flesh, the Saints say, "Amen". When the saints testify of the work of Christ within them or their enjoyment of Christ in the Word, the Saints say, "Amen". This is biblical and the Spirit is active in the exercies of our Oneness in spirit.

If someone has a problem with this I would say they have a problem with Christ and the ones who say these things I have observed are those who oppose any experiential knowlege of Christ. The hyperfundimentalist who deny that the Spirit is anything more than an "influence" to make us feel bad when we sin.

I am not suggesting the writer of this poste is of this mind but those from whom the quote is take are.

This is all.

Graftedbranch


 2005/11/15 20:51Profile
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 Re:

H. C. G. Moule published (or someone did using his writing) a small tract called, "The daily affirmation of faith". It went something like this:

"I believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, therefore I am in Him having redemption through His Blood and Life by His Spirit.

And He is in Me for all my hourly need. There is no difficulty inward or outward which He is not ready to meet in me today.

The Lord is my Shephard, Amen."

When I was in Bible school under the ministry of Joseph S. Carroll, he emphasised this and encourage us to begin our day this way and to "relate everything to Jesus Christ who is our indwelling all sufficient Lord and Saviour."

IN the Lord's recovery, this is the same teaching only using a more biblical phrase of "calling on the Lord". That is, in everything we should practice to call on the Lord. We should exercise our spirit to say, Lord Jesus! acknowleging our union with Him in spirit through faith. This is a biblical practice and one which experientially brings us into the conciousness of the Lord as our indweling Life and Life Supply for every need.

For instance, when in traffic and we are tempted to lose our patience, we call 'Lord Jesus" and in so doing we find a response in our spirit and the Life of of the Lord flows in us and we are brought into the experience of Christ as our patience.

Those who ridicule this are those who are content to be full of knowlege but with no experiential knowlege of "Christ in you, the hope of Glory" who is "made unto us both wisdom from God, rightousness, sanctification and redemption."

It is all one and the same thing. It is living in the Reality of our union with Christ and walking in faith in the Son of God and deriving everything from HIm by the inward aspiration of faith.

Brother Lee said this which I like. He said, "try an experiment. Say "George Washington" three times and see if there is a response in your spirit. Then call, Lord Jesus, three times and see what happens in your spirit." The Word says. "No one can say "Lord Jesus" except in the Holy Spirit. It is a fact that when we call on the Lord there is indeed a response in our spirit and there is a flow of Life. When you call the Lord's Name, you get the Person.Sure, you can call. Lord Jesus. Lord Jesus. Lord Jesus. in a glib way. That is not what is spoken of here. But an exercise of our whole being to call on the Lord. The resson 3 times is said is not some magical number or formula but because the first time it may be very surface, the second time is a little more focused and by the thrird time in experience our spirit is exercised and there is a conciousness of the flow of Life. IT is not a formula but it is experiencially a practical reality.

My brother in law came to stay with me and my wife for a couple of months. Every day my wife and I would get up early, we would pray through some scriptures and call on the Lord. My brother in law made fun of us and ridiculed us. But one day as he was leaving, he turned and said, "you know, I make fun of you for doing that, but every time you call on the Lord it makes me think of Christ and I believe maybe I too should call on the Lord. He did and now He is a regenerated believer and a growing Living thriving Christian. He meets with us two or three times a week and we pray, call on the Lord and get into the scritpures.

Last friday a number of us met in a brother's home and a new one came in. We had a wonderful time of fellowship in the word and she shared concerning some friends she was concerned about. At the end we began to pray for many things including her friends. And as we prayed the saints would say "Amen". when we concluded this young sister said," when you say "Amen", do you sense the Holy Spirit? I listened carefully because I thought she meant, "do you do that becuase you have a sense of the Holy Spirit?" But as she went on she said. I want to know if you are experienceing the same thing I am. When all the saints say, "Amen" I have a sense of the Holy Spirit. do you? We all said, "yes". by saying "Amen" we testify of our oneness of spirit and we all have the same sense of the Spirit when we pray and "Amen" is just our testimony of our oneness.

Oh Lord, Amen, Hallaluah. Simple words connected to the most profound depths of the reality of faith and our union with the crucified and resurrected Lord of Glory. Let those scoff who will. But simple words such as "faith, hope, and Love are on the surface very simple but underneath them lies the Triune God Himself. Oh, Lord, Amen, Hallaluah, are simple words but underneath them is the whole revelation of the New Testament, the depths and riches of Christ and of our union by faith in Him

There is a simple song for children in the Lord's recovery which goes like this:

"Oh Lord, Amen, thats the way to let Him in. Hallaluah, I love to here it. He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit" (1 Cor 6:17)


Graftedbranch

 2005/11/15 21:19Profile
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 Re:

Quote:

For instance, when in traffic and we are tempted to lose our patience, we call 'Lord Jesus" and in so doing we find a response in our spirit and the Life of of the Lord flows in us and we are brought into the experience of Christ as our patience.



Hold up a second, isn't the problem more centered around the fact of losing your patience? Wouldn't it be more true to say, that because we are walking in the spirit in the first place that a normal response would be such of calling on the Name of the Lord... regardless of what 'it' was? Something about this does sound much like what you mention next;

Quote:
Those who ridicule this are those who are content to be full of knowlege but with no experiential knowlege of "Christ in you, the hope of Glory" who is "made unto us both wisdom from God, rightousness, sanctification and redemption."



That is a straw man argument is it not? It is to say if one was to disagree then they have [i]no experiential knowlege of "Christ in you, the hope of Glory[/i] and that is absurd.

Quote:

It is all one and the same thing. It is living in the Reality of our union with Christ and walking in faith in the Son of God and deriving everything from HIm by the inward aspiration of faith.



I seems that this would only likely turn into a never ending dialouge as it also appears that you have only one perception before you, that of Witness Lee and this particular teaching. To be honest, I do not know all that much about it and would be way out of place making any substantial opinion of it other than what comes from what you have been primarily attempting to push here.

Quote:
Oh Lord, Amen, Hallaluah. Simple words connected to the most profound depths of the reality of faith and our union with the crucified and resurrected Lord of Glory. Let those scoff who will.



Is this always with the caveat of suspicion? Anticipating something that has yet to be spoken?

More examples:
Quote:
From this those who oppose have construed him to suggest that this is the hight of Christian experience which is as far fetched and out of context one could imagine.



Quote:
If someone has a problem with this I would say they have a problem with Christ and the ones who say these things I have observed are those who oppose any experiential knowlege of Christ. The hyperfundimentalist who deny that the Spirit is anything more than an "influence" to make us feel bad when we sin.



More straw men, more "If____ Then____"

There is something altogether suspicious alright with this 'teaching', this 'recovery'. Despite whatever is being said to the contrary it is attempting to loft itself above the rest. Your own words of appreciation for these past saints fall down under the weight of the word

"But"

The emphasis on one teacher and one teaching itself ought to be enough to raise all kinds of questioning, that which from what has been seen here in the past with this ministry has the same setups and rebuttals. We have been down this road before.


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Mike Balog

 2005/11/16 0:26Profile





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