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roadsign
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Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re:

Quote:
REST in the "shut down lesson" for now brother Ironman, for believe me He will unzip our lips anew ... to a higher level ...when He's ready!


I'm filtering this statement through my own present experiences.(Isn't that what we all tend to do?)

It seems like God is teaching me that REST is not necessarily a temporary period of being "shut down", but a brand new permanent state - entering into the Promised Land (Hebrews)
Being in his REST, for me seems to be a condition of freedom - freedom from the constant innner nagging - that I must have something yet to do, maybe a "special calling", or that just around the corner I'm going to DO something great for God.

I think that this is the essence of the New Covenant promise - entering his REST, totally content - without feeling that something is missing - something I must do in order to make myself feel complete, or make me a better Christian. And when all those unsettled inner naggings are dead, then I know that I will be able to just sit at the feet of Jesus. I'm not there yet, I'd say.

I know that if he has something for me, fine, but that is up to him, and he will make it happen the way he wants.

Diane


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Diane

 2005/9/17 23:36Profile
Rahman
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Joined: 2004/3/24
Posts: 1374


 Re: Old Tesatment vs New Testament




Hi sister Diane ...

Speaking soley for myself, as you've said "filtering things thru my own experience(s)" with God, i find there to be different levels of "rest" ... Such as i'm completely at rest that the Bible is the Word of God, and completely at rest that i'm saved in our Lord Jesus Christ and am heavenbound ... i'm also completely at rest that even tho at present the Body of Christ doesn't quiet seem to be up to par in saltiness and light, that the gates of hell will not prevail against it ... But the rest i spoke of to brother Ironman has to do with God's calling to those of us who have come to believe that He has a specific purpose for, in, and with our lives ... i believe there comes a time in the specific work when He'll temporarily (as He did with Ezekiel) shut us down for His own specific reasons ...

True God has a plan and purpose for ALL His children that come to Him, but Scripture is replete with those few in comparison to the greater majority of saints, who are called out according to what you refered to as a "special" calling/purpose ... i personally don't like to use the term "special" or "doing something great for God" because it makes others have a tendency to chalk "pride" up to anyone who believes they're hearing something from God that most others arent ...

For the record, from my point of view, any of us who in fact have been called of Him to His own specific purpose of moving and shaking His Body and/or the world in general has been called of no "special" merit of our own, but simply because God decided to do the choosing ... In my own belief/experience of being picked out by Him for a specific work, i have a really difficult time understanding why in that there are so many others far more worthy and faithful in my book from which He could have chosen ...

So 25 years ago i had my salvation experience, resting in the fact that i'm washed in the blood ... But the more i went on in church the more Holy Spirit kept pointing out things to me that we as the Body must quit - The first being the ugliness of denominationalism ... He sent me on a mission regarding this, and i could not "rest" until the task of bringing a Baptist preacher/church and Pentecostal preacher/church together in fellowship, worship and praise was done ... In fact these two preachers/churches are the same two (i believe) He's assigned me to all these years, and i firmly believe will be instrumental to the welfare of so many souls in the Philly area in lieu of the hardships coming ...

i remember when the work got to hard for me and i did my Jonah routine ... i had no rest from my rebellion until i repented and got myself back in line with the specific work prescribed for me to do ... Now that that work is done (for that particular season) i am at complete rest from that end of the work, and am now being prepared for the continuance of His work for me in the new season ...

It's the same with The Called finally coming out in publication ... Here's something that has taken 18 years to come to fruition, and yes had i had what it took to rest thru that period in the fact that all things occur (if its of Him) in His perfect timing, i could have saved myself 18 years of fretting, but i didn't ... But i can now say that even in this i am now at rest, and it was in His reconnecting me to the preparedness of publication that i was even able to rest in His shuting my mouth ...

i've often said that i could have really done without what you so rightly described as that "inner nagging" - that nagging that Jeremiah described as fire shut up in his bones ... It's a compelling that seems to drive some of us way past the acceptable, and comfortable status quo ... i've often questioned myself as to whether that drive was of me or of God, and have come to believe that it has to be of Him becasue if it was left up to me i'd be chillin like it seems so many other church folk are ...

And finally let me say that i don't feel like anythings missing in Christ, but i do have the nagging feeling that a whole lot is missing in Christ Church as far as our representing the Kingdom of God as His ambassadors to this lost and dying world, and i know i can't take credit for placing that nagging in myself ... It's the same as i feel about the souls of my fellow unbeliveing human beings being swept into eternal hell, the burden i feel for this is straight up of the Spirit of God, and anything that i do toward the salvation of the souls of the unsaved is not by my might or power, but of His own thru a not always so willing instrument ...

i truly believe that as long as God has His work for me to do i'll never be content in that aspect until i've done what it is that He has for me to do ... And true what you said "I know that if he has something for me, fine, but that is up to him, and he will make it happen the way he wants." ... But for me, being like Jacob, yeah i have the promise, and yes He gave me the vision, and sure nuff He don't need my help to get me there, but scripture says that the Kingdom of God is taken by those with that nagging sensation that there's more, and that He is a rewarder of we that diligently (painstakingly) seek Him ...

In my salvation i take Him upon His word that i can rest - and so i do, but when it comes to His work for me i want to keep on scrappin up that mountain until i hear Him say for me to rest "a minute" ... And i believe that as long as i'm down here with His work for me to do, that rest will always be a temporary one, as i know that when He allows us to lay one burden down, that rest period will give us renewed strenght to pick up and even move a heavier one ... i'll rest contented and complete once i get to glory ... Amen

 2005/9/19 11:50Profile
roadsign
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Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re: What is the right question?

Rahman, Thank you for sharing your own personal journey through times of rest. You brought out the reality that a word, like “rest” can be used in many contexts – and still not be wrong. Clearly CONTEXT is king, and we must keep that in mind in discussion.

For instance:
You equated “inner nagging” to Jeremiah’s “fire in my bones” – a sense of burden to birth the message implanted within him.

I used the words “inner nagging” in a different way, yet both uses are legitimate. I was referring to unsettled business with God – a deep, (likely unconscious) gnawing sense of perpetual guilt and condemnation that drives a person to do things (works) in order to reduce that discomfort. (sometimes called penance)

Guilt responses are not of faith, and we know that whatever is not of faith is sin. To be motivated by guilt is an indication that one hasn’t come into full REST in the New Covenant promise of forgiveness through Christ. The root is unbelief, and a desire to be in charge of one's own life (like Adam and Eve).

_________________

Ironman, there is something about your original question that is still nagging me (there goes another use of the word), so I went back to start over again. You asked:

Quote:
what is it that we are exempt from in this new Testament?



IntheLight said:
Quote:
The only thing we are now exempt from is attempting to fulfill the law in our human strength.


I’d like to phrase that more strongly:

Trying to fulfill the law in our own strength is a form of rebellion. One is still being ruled by their sin nature. “Whatever is not of faith is sin.” James

Ironman, your question, in itself, seems filled with problems. For if one is truly living the exchanged life – ie Christ through and in him, this question need not be asked. For the Spirit writes God’s laws in our hearts and in our minds (Jer. 31:33) The Spirit guides us to live by laws of love for God and fellow man.

However, if the question is asked by someone who is still ruled by their natural flesh, (true of most who ask this) than it is still not going to point them in the right direction. I believe that one reason people may ask this question is because they still don't feel absolved, they carry some hidden nagging guilt. (And they should!) They may be looking for ways to live "right" in their flesh, and win God’s approval.

The Old Covenant Law was written for the nation of Israel, not the pagan nations (= gentiles)
Even today, the Law is never meant to be a substitute for life in Christ. The NT does not have a category of laws for those who want to live apart from Christ. (Thus your question keeps on being asked - no one can find the answer)

I think we waste a lot of breath trying to fit the New Covenant Law of the Spirit into Old Covenant people. It doesn‘t work. We soon end up trying to find some Old Covenant law anyway, and then we just make nicely polished “Christians”. And they'll cling to laws that accomodate their their sinful mindset.

So why do we keep helping these people along by giving them formulas for living that will only encourage them to live their lives in their own strength?

Now I’ll contradict myself: Those who don’t have a Spirit-ruled inner conscience need rules and laws. Without the Spirit, they need an external source of controls. That would include everyone from birth, because all are sinners.

Our society needs laws because the people, for the most part, are without Christ. Yet even if it tries to follow laws in the bible, it will fail to maintain a godly standard. The old nature will eventually produce it's bad fruit.

At some point each individual must turn over the reigns to a new master. One either continues to be ruled by the sin nature (and desires laws in order to have control) or one is ruled by our Lord (and doesn’t need external laws to have self-control)

Rom. 6:14 “For sin shall not be your master because you are not under law but under grace.”
We must ask: Who does this verse refer to? – I mean, really, not ideally.

“ Man is a slave to whatever has mastered him.” 2 Pet. 2:19. He is either mastered by the sin nature, or by the Spirit.

And that brings us to the right questions: “Who is your master?”
And: How do you know?
Diane

PS
When I think of the “laws” Paul wrote, weren’t they usually directed towards immature believers , ex: the Corithian churches, legalizers, etc


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Diane

 2005/9/20 12:37Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4794


 Re:

Someone wrote:

Quote:
The only thing we are now exempt from is attempting to fulfill the law in our human strength



The OT saints could not fulfill the law in their human strenght, nor were they ever expected to. Listen to Psalm 119

25 My soul clings to the dust: revive me according to Your word. 26. I have declared my ways, and You answered me; Teach me Your statutes. Make me understand the way of Your precepts; So shall I meditate on Your wonderful works...Remove the way of lying, and grant me Your law graciously...28

Listen to where this man know where his help comes from. He knows that he cannot overcome the sin in his life. He asks the Lord to remove it from him. He asks the Lord for understanding. Where does this wisdom come from? Is it not the Holy Spirit?

No one was ever expected to keep the law in their own strenght. They were all condemned by the law just like we are today.

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2005/9/20 15:35Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4794


 Re:

1Kings 10:24 Now all the earth sought the presence of Solomon to hear his wisdom, which God had put in his heart.

5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
And in sin my mother conceived me.
6 Behold, You desire truth in the inward parts,
And in the hidden part You will make me to know wisdom.
7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean;
Wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
8 Make me hear joy and gladness,
That the bones You have broken may rejoice.
9 Hide Your face from my sins,
And blot out all my iniquities.
10 Create in me a clean heart, O God,
And renew a steadfast spirit within me.
11 Do not cast me away from Your presence,
And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.
12 Restore to me the joy of Your salvation,
And uphold me by Your generous Spirit.

Prov. 2:6 For the LORD gives wisdom;
From His mouth come knowledge and understanding;
7 He stores up sound wisdom for the upright;
He is a shield to those who walk uprightly;

Prov. 2:10 When wisdom enters your heart,
And knowledge is pleasant to your soul,
10 When wisdom enters your heart,
And knowledge is pleasant to your soul,
11 Discretion will preserve you;
Understanding will keep you,

Here are some examples of what God does in men. We say that we need to have the Holy Spirit illuminate the word of God. We say that this illumination gives us understanding. The OT gives us many examples of saints who were also saved in the same way.

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2005/9/21 12:09Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4794


 Re:

The books of Psalms and Proverbs are part of the OT. Those generations read the Word of God, does not the power of the Word of God have the same power to change their lives as it does those who read His Word now?

Who give man the right to cut out sections of the Holy Scripture? Is not the real question, how little do we understand how every jot and tittle fits perfectly.

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2005/9/22 11:20Profile
Rahman
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Joined: 2004/3/24
Posts: 1374


 Re:


Hey brother Jeff! ... Good to see you back ... :-D

You wrote:
Who give man the right to cut out sections of the Holy Scripture? Is not the real question, how little do we understand how every jot and tittle fits perfectly.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa-men! ... "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works." ... :beard:

 2005/9/22 12:11Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4794


 Re:

Br Rahman wrote:

Quote:
Hey brother Jeff! ... Good to see you back ...



Our family will be moving to Lancaster County Pennsylvania in June. That is almost in your neck of the woods. It is also good to hear your Voice.

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2005/9/23 16:14Profile
baruch_48
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Joined: 2005/5/31
Posts: 78


 Re: Old Tesatment vs New Testament

very good posts, Rahman & Roadsign ..... we must learn to "be" - before we "do"

W. Nee has a great message someone titled "Waste", floating around the Net somewhere ( don't have a link to it off-hand , could be here on sermonindex ) ... that challenges to just "be" before the Lord in His presence ... for the rest of one's life, if that's what He calls you to

Significant that the Lord shut brother Nee up in a Chinese prison for 20 years after he proclaimed that

Would we follow the Lord if He leads us "Nowhere" ?

 2005/9/24 4:46Profile
crsschk
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Perhaps one word

Quote:
Would we follow the Lord if He leads us "Nowhere" ?



It's a good question and reminds one of:

Jer 45:5 And seekest thou great things for thyself? seek them not: for, behold, I will bring evil upon all flesh, saith the LORD: but thy life will I give unto thee for a prey in all places whither thou goest.

With some clarifying, not to take it completely out of context.

[b]Jer 45:5 - Seekest thou great things for thyself? seek them not[/b],.... Riches and wealth honour and esteem, peace and prosperity; these were not to be sought after and expected, when the whole nation would be involved in such a general calamity. Baruch perhaps expected that his reading the roll to princes would have been a means of preferring him at court, of advancing him to some post or office, in which he might have acquired wealth, and got applause, and lived in peace and plenty all his days; but this was not to be looked for; when, if he observed, the very roll he wrote and read contained in it prophecies of the general ruin of the nation. The Jews restrain this to the gift of prophecy they suppose Baruch sought after, which was not to be enjoyed out of the land of Canaan:

[b]for, behold, I will bring evil upon all flesh;[/b] not upon every individual person in the world; but upon all the inhabitants of Judea, who should either die by the sword or by famine, or by pestilence, or be carried captive, or be in some distress or another:

[b]but thy life will I give unto thee for a prey in all places whither thou goest;[/b] suggesting that he should be obliged to quit his native place and country, and go from place to place; as he did, after the destruction of Jerusalem, along with the prophet; and even into Egypt with the Jews that went there; where his life would be in danger, and yet should be preserved; he should be snatched as a brand out of the burning, when Jerusalem was taken; and in other places, when exposed, though he should lose everything, yet not his life; which should be as dear to him as a rich spoil taken by the soldier, being a distinguishing mercy.

John Gill

Where this all might tie together with the original question... Think Rahman touched on it and the word that stands out primarily is;

"Fulfilled"

Maybe a deeper searching into what all is contained in that would bring forth a closing of the gap in our thinking of what is perceived between the "Old" and the "New". It seems to carry both a sense of completion while yet raising the standard even higher. That of what Jesus stated in regards to the righteousness of the Pharisees ... [i]surpassing[/i]

Perhaps that is enough for starters, before this sense of my own fleshly thoughts starts creeping in.

Something I do feel warranted to bring forth here though. Both Rahman and IRONMAN. Think there was a point of departure and perhaps some animosity between us due to a lot of the discussions over prophesy in the past. It caused some reflection and reassessment, far too much to go into here. But find it very interesting that perhaps we all were made to reflect, being that this is being expressed in various ways, in being "shut up"... hope that is not misconstrued, just in the pulling back ... Bound to get off track so will state it plainly. Missed both of you here and took much to heart out of all that came before. At the time Jim left to go I believe it was to Africa? My prayers went along with him as well, just not vocalized here. Hope it is well with his soul, perhaps an update of how he is fairing? Think there were a lot of things now upon reflection that I would look at differently. For everyone else here, this may mean very little, but to you both I humble myself and thank you for helping me shave off some more of the plank in my own eye. There is just far too much that we cannot glean from where you are sitting. But your hearts still come through.

Where will we be able to purchase this work Rahman? How wonderful to know one of our own has developed something into production, I eagerly look forward to it.


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Mike Balog

 2005/9/24 12:39Profile





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