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Discussion Forum : General Topics : Was Kathryn Kuhlman even Saved?

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baruch_48
Member



Joined: 2005/5/31
Posts: 78


 Re:

Quote:
Are they sincere? Probably. Do they think they are doing God a service? Probably? Has God used them. Yes. Do we follow everything they did? Definitely not.



Hi brother Robert,

I really appreciate the spirit with which you speak.

But in agreeing with what I quote of you, above ... with all of it being perhaps true, are we to give a stamp of approval on such "ministry", nevertheless ?

How do we know if she truly " was in love with the Lord" ( as her 'husband', etc ) ?

Just by reading that in some biography, undoubtedly slanted by her admirers ?

a deep intimacy with the Lord ?

how do we know that ?

Of course such words would be proferred by folks out there, David Wilkerson included - but who's he ? Just a man.

There seems to be an utter "dis-juncture" between on the one hand lauding her intimacy with our Lord .... and then on the other saying - " well, things worked out kinda strangely, in the outward-life .. "

Could it be that her "marriage" was to her name, and to her ministry - rather than to the Lord ?

I just offer that as a possibility - the Lord knows if that's the case or not - I offer it as a possibility - knowing some will post "how dare you offer that ! about such a Giant .... "

Would the fact that some would become very offended, undoubtedly .... point perhaps to the whole "movement" she kind of got the ball rolling on - a movement of Man-following - centered around her ? ( which the Lord somehow was able to work Himself into )

You're evidently a man of discernment, as seen in some of your postings, Brother, but are you maybe seeking justifications for something that you know deep down "smells" of something not Heavenly ?

I get a total sense of back and forth, in your words, though I do appreciate the spirit of them. I think you ought come 'off the fence', so to speak .. in one direction or the other.


baruch

 2005/9/2 7:39Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Hi Baruch,

Quote:
How do we know if she truly " was in love with the Lord" ( as her 'husband', etc ) ?

Just by reading that in some biography, undoubtedly slanted by her admirers ?

a deep intimacy with the Lord ?

how do we know that ?



These questions are my own perceptions. I base them on not just biographies but old videos of worship services that I have seen. I am ascribing no authority to my perceptions. Since none of us here likely really knew her, either way, we can only go on the evidence. Generally speaking I think she really loved God.

Quote:
There seems to be an utter "dis-juncture" between on the one hand lauding her intimacy with our Lord .... and then on the other saying - " well, things worked out kinda strangely, in the outward-life .. "



I would not agree here, but I understand where you are coming from. Some of the godliest women I ever knew had things about them that would strike me as 'odd'. Yet when I was in their presence my spirit bore witness with them and I discerned the Lord working in them. There is a fine line between unorthodox and heresy.

Quote:
Could it be that her "marriage" was to her name, and to her ministry - rather than to the Lord ?



I could make no such judgment about her. I have no idea and am in no position to make such a judgment. God will someday bring to light the hidden counsels of the hearts. In that day I believe we will find that a lot of men and women that we thought had it all together- may well come up short and some we thought were out of bounds may withstand the fire. I am only left to discern whether what she taught was truth or error and that on a line upon line basis.


Quote:
I just offer that as a possibility - the Lord knows if that's the case or not - I offer it as a possibility - knowing some will post "how dare you offer that ! about such a Giant .... "



No need to be defensive. Personally I can take or leave any minister. I prefer some and believe they speak truth, but I have no alliegences to defend. I have seen to many people fall to trust in any but Christ.


Quote:
Would the fact that some would become very offended, undoubtedly .... point perhaps to the whole "movement" she kind of got the ball rolling on - a movement of Man-following - centered around her ? ( which the Lord somehow was able to work Himself into )



Could be, but again I can't say. I try to generally give folks the benefit of the doubt until I know otherwise.


Quote:
You're evidently a man of discernment, as seen in some of your postings, Brother, but are you maybe seeking justifications for something that you know deep down "smells" of something not Heavenly ?



I am not seeking to justify anything or anyone. There are many people in the faith that have done things that I did not agree with, but yet I still believed there was somewhat to be gleaned from them. Jean Calvin and his burning of Michael Servetus comes to mind. Luther and his tractate against the Jews before he died, "On the Jews and Their Lies." I could go on.


Quote:
I get a total sense of back and forth, in your words, though I do appreciate the spirit of them. I think you ought come 'off the fence', so to speak .. in one direction or the other



Things are not that cut and dry. If I took that approach then I would cut everyone I ever heard speak off from my life. Because we do not all agree on things. When a person gets 'so far' I simply withdraw from them and no longer allow their influence. I do not fight against them generally. Even though my background as a bible teacher is rooted in apologetics I do not take fail swoops like that. Eating watermelon requires that one spit out the seeds. Rat Poison is 90% good corn its the 10% strict nine that makes it deadly. These are little cliches' I use from time to time. Some things I simply abstain from.

Yet, I believe the biggest danger to Christendom is a Christianity without the New Birth. Motivational speakers posing as preachers, etc. Praying a one sentence prayer and then "welcome to the family." The discernment ministries such as CRI give many of these men and their methods a green light. That, I can never understand. My focus is on the New Birth and victory over sin. That is my focus. Getting preachers and ministers and Christians off porn and internet gambling so they will have an unction. These are the things that are important to me.

God Bless,

-Robert


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2005/9/2 8:47Profile









 Re:

Dullrainbow... you reference to John 18:1-7 as being your proof text for the "slain in the spirit" movememnt. I think it actually shows just the opposite.

I'm not calling anyone an enemy of God... but it is interesting to note that in the Bible, when men of God fell to the ground in His presence they ALWAYS fell on their faces. When the enemies of God fell in His presence, they fell [b]backwards[/b].

What do we see when people are slain in the "spirit"? They fall backwards.

If being slain in the spirit was a phenomenom of God, it seems to me there would have been evidence of it in the 1st century church. There isnt. Revivalists have been mentioned, saying this happened in those revivals. It did... but you leave out that these revivalists viewed people being "slained" as a great distraction.

Krispy

 2005/9/2 9:05
7t
Member



Joined: 2005/10/24
Posts: 1


 Re:

Have you ever listened to what the Lady had to say about Jesus? No more vinegar.
7t

 2005/10/24 0:21Profile
groh_frog
Member



Joined: 2005/1/5
Posts: 432


 You will know them by their fruits...

On this particular thread, like on many before it, there has been a lot of debate about weather or not we can judge a person.

It's a tough spot to be in, judging the trueness of a person. But it's an extremely important thing, also.

Paul was very stern on discernment, and I am, also.

Now, it was said that even though the outward life may appear strange, you can't judge the inward. I don't believe this to be true. Saying that a person a differing opinion, and differing doctrines, about what the Bible says is often a polite way of saying that that person has formed a mold that they put God into.

Now, things like this movement in which people fall down when they come too close to such a "holy" person makes me very suspicious. I do believe that a person can be moved by the Holy Spirit in profound ways- listen to Duncan Cambell sometime. I do not, however, believe that literal gifts, such as many denominations prey on, are a sign of holiness.

Now, being honest, I know very little of the person who we are talking about in this thread. But the fact that people might be willing to overlook biblical issues- women in leadership, etc. to say that a person was "just religious in a differnt way" is amazing.

I understand that I, nor any other man, knows everything there is to know, but I do believe that the Bible is very clear, and inerrant in what it says. I am not willing to test the Lord to create a new definition of Christianity.

To those who persist in keeping with what is right in the eyes of the Lord,

Grace and Peace...

 2005/10/27 4:04Profile
PreachParsly
Member



Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re: You will know them by their fruits...

My thought is that if God moves over you so powerfully that He knocks you off your feet, whether forward or backwards, you will be changed. I've seen so many people "fall out" and then just go watch a movie like nothing happened. Come on... if God moves on a person like that they would be changed forevermore and not take it like you would a grain of salt. But if its just an emotional thing.. you could just go on like nothing happened.


_________________
Josh Parsley

 2005/10/27 10:25Profile
Eli_Barnabas
Member



Joined: 2005/2/16
Posts: 621
Cache Valley, Utah

 Re:

Quote:
I've seen so many people "fall out" and then just go watch a movie like nothing happened.



I agree with you PreachParsly.


_________________
Eli Brayley

 2005/10/27 10:53Profile
groh_frog
Member



Joined: 2005/1/5
Posts: 432


 Re:

Yeah, unfortunately, you have to ask if they know God/met God, or if they're just trying to impress somebody. Ya know, I've been there though- wanting to impress my peers/people I look up to in the Church. No, I'm not proud of it- wanting to serve what doesn't matter, to impress people in this life. But I know I've done it at times.

Unfortunately, that kind of things seems to be a popular way to be. Another guile to detract from the witness of the Truth.

I'm probably babbling again, but hopefull you can see through it. We can let it be known that there are false salvations, and many don't realize it. Just look at so many of the "christian cults" and such.

It must be getting late- time for me to go to bed.

Grace adn Peace...

 2005/10/27 11:02Profile
dohzman
Member



Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 Re: Was Kathryn Kuhlman even Saved?

Bro. Gery:

My neighbor who just months ago went to be with the Lord was one of the pastors who traveled with Kulman and "pop Humbard" through the early years during the ole' tent revivals that used to sweep the nation. Boy the stories he told! Anyway, he used to tell me that he can't ever rember not seeing her in prayer. I think we get on dangerous territory when we decide to become critical of anothers servant. Disagree with her doctrine if you will but attacking thier character and even thier salvation? I wouldn't want to stand close to you for fear that the earth might open up.


_________________
D.Miller

 2005/10/27 14:40Profile
dohzman
Member



Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 FROM THE HORSES MOUTH

Ok now I've had some time to read through all the posts. The opening question was "was she saved"? From there everyone went in to "slayed in the spirit", is it of God?

My late neighbor Bob L. spent all his early years, up till the early 70's as one of the many ministers who traveled with Miss Kuhlman. Along with "Pop Humbard". I won't get into all the history. I do know people who got saved at her meetings as well as some who were terminally ill and were healed.

Was she saved? Personally I believe so. Bob used to say she was always praying and that you couldn't have a regular conversation with her because she never turned her attention away from an attitude of prayer being lifted up to the Lord. I supose if we ---any of us would decide to spend 8 hrs a day in prayer and intercession, we might see some things too. :-)

Slayed in the spirit. I always wondered what the things were that John didn't write in his gospel of Jesus Christ, he mentions it twice. On one occassion Jesus' mother and brothers were "without" desiring to take him because they said he was beside himself, I wonder what that scene looked like. If I was a scribe or phar. I could probably handle a random healing here and there, so what was it about the healing ministry that made them so mad? I wonder what it was they saw, and why did it bother these teachers of the law(word)? As I've gotten older I've become very slow to speak and even slower to point the finger.

In any movement you will have fakes. Alot of stories here. But the fact that there's fake experiences like slayings only proves that there is the real thing also. And these signs shall follow them that believe.......I wonder how the early disciples heard that?


_________________
D.Miller

 2005/10/28 0:40Profile





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