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Gery
Member



Joined: 2005/8/29
Posts: 95
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 Was Kathryn Kuhlman even Saved?

Dear Brethren,

Sorry for my straight question, but when I look at her ministtry, I doubt whether she was saved at all. Here's why:
1) Elevating the Holy Spirit above the Other Persons of the Trinity, knowing that the Bible says that "He (Holy Spirit) will glorify me(Jesus)" (Joh 16:14) is only one place that she falls into error.
2) Propagating the "slain in the Spirit" phenomena, that has absolutely no Biblical grounds.

Then there are the healings she was known for. There are two sides to this. The one is that many that she claimed to heal in her meetings were found false after investigation.
On the other hand there were also healings done, but with this background the question arises:
"By whose power did she heal?" and "How did she know when someone was healed, as was her habit: to call out someone from among thousands of people and say "in row 16 someone is healed from cancer".

These are just a few thoughts, but the Bible commands: "believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are from God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world" (1 John 4:1)
In the light of this evidence I am convinced that she knew not the Jesus of my Bible and she preached not the Gospel that Peter and Paul preached.

May the Lord Himself teach us and give us ears to hear and minds to discern and hearts to seek Him for His own sake.

In His love,
Gery



 2005/8/31 18:47Profile
jeremyhulsey
Member



Joined: 2003/4/18
Posts: 777


 Re: Was Kathryn Kuhlman even Saved?

Well, I'm the judge of no man, or woman in this case. However, I do know that David Wilkerson said that she was a godly woman, and spoke in many of her crusades.


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Jeremy Hulsey

 2005/9/1 0:33Profile









 Re: Was Kathryn Kuhlman even Saved?

In answer to the main question - I have no way of knowing.

Quote:
Propagating the "slain in the Spirit" phenomena,

Is it from her ministry that this began?

Quote:
that has [b]absolutely no Biblical grounds[/b].

This is the point that bothers me about 'slain in the Spirit'. If just one person in the New Testament had fallen down suddenly when Jesus touched them, it would be a whole lot easier to accommodate in one's theology.

On the other hand, there are times in scripture when a person is asleep, nearly asleep, dreaming or subdued into worship by the appearance of an angel, where their state of heightened spiritual awareness is unquestioned by us believers. And I have experienced similar occasions, during times of intense seeking to know God's guidance or, when He has presented certain answers to prayer.

Is 'slain in the Spirit' then, just a trendy way of describing something which has always been a possibility in the experience of those seeking God?

My one experience of falling to the ground when prayed for, definitely was [i]not[/i] from the Holy Spirit; this adds to my concern, and causes me to avoid circumstances where my worship or response to God is going to be judged on whether this (has) happened to me or not.

 2005/9/1 6:29









 Re:

I dont think we can sit in judgement of her salvation.

I think a more reasonable question is "was her ministry of the Lord", and personally I would answer no.

I know this will spark controversy, but I do need to clarify my answer.

#1 Scripture says that women should not usurp authority over men in the church. She claimed to have great spiritual authority.

#2 There is not one single medically documented case of a legitimate healing from the entire time that she claimed to be healing people in her services.

#3 She propogated the false teachings of WOF.

#4 Even if she had been a man, she disqualified herself from ministry because she committed adultry while at the height of her "ministry" and never missed a beat. I personally believe if a minister commits adultry, they're done in that capacity. But at the very least there should be a season that they remove themselves from ministry in order to get help and get it behind them.

#5 She propogated the false "slain in the spirit" movement.

I have always been fascinated by the fact that she died at a relatively young age from cancer. Her own teachings (WOF) taught that healing was for EVERY believer... they just needed to have faith, and claim it. So why did she die of cancer?

Benny Hinn is the product of Kuhlman.

I know I may get strung up for some if this, but I call it the way I see it.

But I'll leave the judging of people's salvation up to the only One who knows the heart.

Krispy

 2005/9/1 6:42
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Kathran Kuhlman was from a little town down the road a bit from my city called Concordia. Her father was killed when she was a girl- run over by a car as I recall and from there on she began persuing God.

I have read many books about her life. All that I know of. it seems to me that she really loved God. She had strange ways though. Far be it from me to condone them. From what I read she had a deep intimacy with God. She got into some bad relationships that were sinful and eventually got out of them. She married a man who left his wife. She had to end that. Its a long story.

But after he was gone she just (as I understand those who wrote about her) wanted God to be her husband. She found in Christ the fellowship that would replace the man she loved and lost. This deep intimacy with God was at the foundation of what would come of these things.

From this came the concept that a person could sit in the presence of God and that that presence could become tangible. It may not have started with her- but it would certainly be proliferated and eventually produce some of Benny Hinn's teachings. You may have heard him say, "THERE GOES THE ANOINTING..." These concepts, as I understand them, are rooted in the belief that an intense prayer life brings a tangable presence of God. When I used to follow these things in the early 90's I recall Tozer being quoted a lot.

It really comes down to a hybred form of Christian Mysticism. I went to a meeting in New Orleans in 1993 and sat by a Catholic Charismatic New Ager. Whoa! I thought- boy, people can really get messed up. Hence was born a modern "experience based" Christianity. People look for an "experience" or "manifestation" of the Holy Spirit. The door flys open to laughter, drunk in the Spirit, etc. etc.

When the emphasis comes of of the New Birth everything goes crazy. When men are not expected to repent. When folk are not expected to yield the fruit of the Spirit unto holiness. When spirituality is measured by who falls when you lay on hands. Things get out of whack.

Are they sincere? Probably. Do they think they are doing God a service? Probably? Has God used them. Yes. Do we follow everything they did? Definitely not.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2005/9/1 9:11Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Are they sincere? Probably. Do they think they are doing God a service? Probably? Has God used them. Yes. Do we follow everything they did? Definitely not.


What a wise man you are! :-D

I never quite recovered from the "Daughter of Destiny" biography from sympathetic Jamie Buckingham. The concept of using 'slaying in the spirit' as a disciplinary tool to keep platform associates in line disturbed me deeply.


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Ron Bailey

 2005/9/1 10:21Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
I never quite recovered from the "Daughter of Destiny" biography from sympathetic Jamie Buckingham. The concept of using 'slaying in the spirit' as a disciplinary tool to keep platform associates in line disturbed me deeply.



Yes. She also seemed to believe that her father was saved although she was never quite sure if he was born again. My, how we come to terms with things.

As a new Christian freshly filled with the Spirit I was attracted to the 'power' and manifestations that were said to have taken place. I would hear stories and really go after it. WOW, "you mean people fell out in the Spirit as she walked through the kitchen the power of God was so strong on her?" I would think, "I want to be just like that!"

It reminds me of my uncles telling stories about their youth and their sensational adventures. We would look at them as kids all attentively. WOW, "you mean your car would pop-wheel-ees?" I want a car like that when I grow up.

Now I'm content to just get where I'm going. Nothing fancy- just functional. And so it is with these things- they come off as fancy- but are they functional? Not in a pragmatic sense- but in terms of the right presentation of the objectives of the Holy Spirit in the earth. I could care less about popping wheel-ees, is anyone being born again?


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Robert Wurtz II

 2005/9/1 13:13Profile









 Re:

Robert... I'm reading that last post and just about throwing my neck out of alignment shaking my head "YES!!". You are right on!

Krispy

 2005/9/1 13:26
FireinmyBones1
Member



Joined: 2004/1/17
Posts: 219
Michigan

 Re:

It seems that not much has changed on this forum. I love and bless each and everyone of you as my brothers and sisters in the Lord but I can honestly say that I feel sorry for you. To judge a work that has yielded incredible fruits simply because of you deem as extremes which followed? Come on! Isn't this going clearly against Johnathon Edwards treatise on how to judge a move of God? (i.e. that it is not to be judged by the manifestation that accompany it) Not that I am using Edwards as scripture but many of you dear brothers and sisters would quickly misquote him as evidence AGAINST other moves of the Spirit. As for the "slain in the Spirit" phenomena . . . why even bother arguing. Search the scriptures without a bias and you will quickly see that bodily reactions to God's presence are nothing strange or abnormal - certainly their were no "catchers" or "towel girls" in apolostolic times, or terms such as "slain in the Spirit" - but the phenomena more than likely happened with regularity. Look at the history of Revival which you all praise - Hebrides, Wales, Cane Ridge, 1 and 2 Great Awakenings - physical prostrations were common in all of them. And NO they were not all the results of extreme conviction - Wesleys journals record prostrations that included esoteric laughter and joy - Edwards speeks of prostrations caused by a foretaste of judgement, and then other caused by a foretaste of HEAVEN. If we would stop majoring on minors we could get a whole lot more done for the kingdom.
As for emphasizing the Holy Spirit - read the life of Evan Roberts and study the 1904 Welsh Revival and you will see that the Holy Spirit was exalted and praised. One of Roberts 4 requirements for heaven sent revival was an acknowledgment of the Holy Spirit as God - (among other things). And many in his day criticized him for this - however their names are mostly forgotten and their criticisms silenced, history proved the reality of what God did!
My point judging a man, woman, or ministry simply by physical manifestations that accompany their ministry or by one or two doctrinal differences (study Whitfield and Wesley and observe the sharp disagreements they had) is immature, shallow, and superficial. Judge by the fruit of her ministry - which I believe is good. I am not a Kathryn Kuhlman historian but I have definitely seen some of the good fruit produced from her life and ministry.

I honestly don't expect this post to change the minds of those dead set on retaining their views. I have posted enough in the past that has gone unnoticed. I love and bless you but beg you to re examine your ways, and hearts. How will you ever receive the revival you pray so fervently for when it comes? What if strange phenomena accompany it (like it has in every major revival)? What will you do then? Will you be on this site criticizing it? I for one want to be right in the thick of it! I don't ever want to be one sitting on the shore shouting orders to those in the boats - I want to be right in the middle of what God is doing!
Please attempt to hear my heart in this!
Burning,


Jeff


_________________
Jeff

 2005/9/1 14:04Profile









 Re:

Quote:
My point judging a man, woman, or ministry simply by physical manifestations that accompany their ministry or by one or two doctrinal differences (study Whitfield and Wesley and observe the sharp disagreements they had) is immature, shallow, and superficial.



I guess Paul was immature, shallow, and superficial. ;-)

Krispy

 2005/9/1 14:08





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