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roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 What Christians should understand about homosexuality and gay marriage

I would like know what you think of this sermon about gay marriage by Bruxy Cavey, a pastor of a church geered to the younger generation, and to those who are deeply wounded by church.

[url=http://www.themeetinghouse.ca/media/284-2002-11-3.mp3]What Christians should know about the gay marriage issues[/url]

I post it because I feel that we as Christians need to take time to learn more about the issue in order that we can respond effectively and Christ-like. Do you think Pastor Bruxy is leading us in the right direction?


The actual title, "Is gay marriage a step in the right direction?" makes it seem like the preacher is engaging us in a non-negotiable debate. He is not, however, he is engaging us to think more deeply about many things surrounding it. You will be amazed!
Diane
(PS. I chose to revisit this topic with a new title hoping this time to avoid confusing impressions)


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Diane

 2005/8/30 10:08Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re: What Christians should understand about homosexuality and gay marriage

I think he is mistaken in saying that a homosexual orientation is the same order of problem as a man's 'non-monogamous' orientation. The first is an aberration of 'nature' and is labeled by Paul as un-natural. “For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:” (Rom. 1:26, KJVS) The second is an abuse of a God-given natural instinct.

His linking of mutual compassion/commitment with 'aspects' of homosexual orientation is similarly mistaken. "No one is ridiculing deep, heart felt compassion that can be had between two people of the same sex. Deep, heart felt, compassion, romantic attachment, are all partnered with sexual desire. Some of the deep compassion can be very touching and very genuine and no-one is trying to dismiss that. But is it love to act on that?" I am uncomfortable with these sentences. What does 'partnered with sexual desire' mean in this context? Sexual desire is part of what God made us to be. It requires 'revelation' to use it appropriately. But is he saying that 'homosexual desire' is part of what God made us to be? In what context could it ever be appropriate? If the 'revelation' is to be believed 'God' has given a desire that must be forever frustrated in every conceivable circumstance.

There is a fundamental difference between heterosexual sin and homosexual sin. Neither homosexual desire or practice is never condoned by God. There is no Song of Songs to mirror the relationship between Christ and his Bride. There never can be. Heterosexual desire has it place as a metaphor in the Song, but homosexual desire could never mirror God.

I have difficulty too with the assumption that homosexual orientation will continue unchanged in the 'Christ follower'. And if God does change it, why? If it is essentially no different to heterosexual orientation? “Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.” (1Cor. 6:9-10, NKJV) Would we not expect the Spirit of God to change the orientation of the thief, the covetous, the drunkards etc? Why not the 'homosexually orientated'?

I am not anti-homosexual or homophobic. I think the thrusting forwards of any sexuality is unpleasant but I do not see the homosexual as 'worse' than another. According to Romans 1 the orientation and the practice is the ongoing consequence of a determination to alter revelation. To 'change the truth of God into a lie'. My gospel offers 'freedom' for the homosexually orientated. I am convinced that Paul's did too.


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Ron Bailey

 2005/8/30 11:53Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN

 Re:

Rom. 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

Rom. 1:24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

I agree with Brother Ron concerning this type of relationship. All men are without excuse, God has given all the witness of the eternal power which calls out to all in the gates of the city and on the mountain tops. When one continues to rebel against God's eternal power, there comes a time where God removes that which preserves and their conscience is seared. The conscience is seared because God has removed that which enables depraved man to know Him,

Therefore in rebelion man degenerates into something that can never coexist with the influence that God has given to all men, The Scriptures teach that those who are given up by God will have their hearts hardened by sin, Man has no hope without God no matter how one might appeal his case before the Lord.

The religion of Humanism has many ways, the road is broad and appealing, but it leads to destruction,

Prov. 7:1 My son, keep my words,
And treasure my commands within you.
2 Keep my commands and live,
And my law as the apple of your eye.
3 Bind them on your fingers;
Write them on the tablet of your heart.
4 Say to wisdom, “You are my sister,”
And call understanding your nearest kin,
5 That they may keep you from the immoral woman,
From the seductress who flatters with her words.
6 For at the window of my house
I looked through my lattice,
7 And saw among the simple,
I perceived among the youths,
A young man devoid of understanding,
8 Passing along the street near her corner;
And he took the path to her house
9 In the twilight, in the evening,
In the black and dark night.
10 And there a woman met him,
With the attire of a harlot, and a crafty heart.
11 She was loud and rebellious,
Her feet would not stay at home.
12 At times she was outside, at times in the open square,
Lurking at every corner.
13 So she caught him and kissed him;
With an impudent face she said to him:
14 “I have peace offerings with me;
Today I have paid my vows.
15 So I came out to meet you,
Diligently to seek your face,
And I have found you.
16 I have spread my bed with tapestry,
Colored coverings of Egyptian linen.
17 I have perfumed my bed
With myrrh, aloes, and cinnamon.
18 Come, let us take our fill of love until morning;
Let us delight ourselves with love.
19 For my husband is not at home;
He has gone on a long journey;
20 He has taken a bag of money with him,
And will come home on the appointed day.”
21 With her enticing speech she caused him to yield,
With her flattering lips she seduced him.
22 Immediately he went after her, as an ox goes to the slaughter,
Or as a fool to the correction of the stocks,
23 Till an arrow struck his liver.
As a bird hastens to the snare,
He did not know it would cost his life.

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2005/8/30 12:47Profile
roadsign
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Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re: comments about the message

Just curious, Rookie, have you heard the message?

So, Philologos, Do you think that by equating homosexuality and adultery, Bruxy is implying that adulterers are less sinful than homosexuals? What difference would these degrees of sinfulness make to their potential salvation? Do homosexuals deserve a greater punishment - less mercy? Are they less salvable?

Correct me: Do I sense that you feel Bruxy's message is not what Jesus would have said? Do you think that he is not leading the sinners to repentance ie Christ? Funny, I sensed the opposite.

Funny, it seems to me that Jesus was actually harshest with the religious leaders - those who were morally upright and knew the Torah very well. They were the ones most resistant to Christ.

Funny how people can hear different things from the same message. I do not get any impression that Bruxy is condoning or excusing any aspect of homosexuality, but is showing them that they need Christ to rule their lives, and that a homosexual life style conflicts with that.

Here is another thought:
Why not check some of the testimonies of recovered homosexuals on the [url=http://www.exodusglobalalliance.org/]Exodus[/url] site? These people have great insight for us, since they have walked where we never have - and they have found Christ!!!!!
Diane


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Diane

 2005/8/30 13:08Profile
Eli_Barnabas
Member



Joined: 2005/2/16
Posts: 621
Cache Valley, Utah

 Re:

Quote:
Would we not expect the Spirit of God to change the orientation of the thief, the covetous, the drunkards etc? Why not the 'homosexually orientated'?



Amen, Philologos! Amen, brother!


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Eli Brayley

 2005/8/30 13:24Profile
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re: old nature

I think we can safely assume that in this forum people understand that a homosexual life style is a sinful pattern of living. But that is not the end of our responsibility to God. We must not only desire that they repent, we must also be as Christ to them, no matter how we may feel or how disturbed we feel by them. Don't we have a role in that?

Quote:
Would we not expect the Spirit of God to change the orientation of the thief, the covetous, the drunkards etc? Why not the 'homosexually orientated'



So how do we respond to those who, after surrendering to Christ, still struggle with aspects of their old nature, or do you feel that this should not happen?

Other Christians struggle too: overeating, materialism, fear of man, reliance on man, alcohol. Perhaps some are instantly transformed, but not all are. Or some are healed of one thing (cigarettes) but still struggle with anger.

Is is not admirable for a redeemed homosexual to CHOOSE not to engage in such activity, even though his bent may still linger?




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Diane

 2005/8/30 13:38Profile
Kadmiel
Member



Joined: 2005/8/8
Posts: 74
Florida, U.S.A.

 Re: comments about the message


roadsign wrote:

Have you ever checked some of the testimonies of recovered homosexuals on the Exodus site? These people may have some insight for us, since they have walked where we never have - and they have found Christ!!!!!
Diane


Insight for us ?


I have all the insight i need in the Word of God, and by the Holy Ghost,(not from thier testimonies) along with the love of the Lord for thier souls to find Christ!



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Tommy

 2005/8/30 13:43Profile
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re:

Quote:
I have all the insight i need in the Word of God, and by the Holy Ghost,(not from thier testimonies) along with the love of the Lord for thier souls to find Christ!


This is great! Do you mind sharing some of your insight - as it relates to the sermon?

Yes the Bible contains everything we need to know in order to live right.

Yet, I think that we all have to admit that, historically, unbelievable atrocities against humanity have been done by those who claim to believe every word in the Bible and believe that they are defending the cause of Christ.

I think it is alway prudent to examine our own hearts - and grow in spiritual insight and love.


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Diane

 2005/8/30 14:12Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
So, Philologos,
Do you think that by equating homosexuality and adultery, Bruxy is implying that adulterers are less sinful than homosexuals?
What difference would these degrees of sinfulness make to their potential salvation?
Do homosexuals deserve a greater punishment - less mercy?
Are they less salvable?


No.
None, because they aren't.
No.
No.

Having just listened to the one message it would be unfair of me to comment on this except to say that from what I have heard the preacher seems to find some commendable aspects of a homosexual orientation. I am still unsure what he means by saying that acts of compassion and romantic attachment 'partner' sexual desires. I can see how romantic attachments would do so, but compassion? What is he saying, that every act of compassion was motivated by a sexual desire?

Actually, I think I probably do know what he is taking about but he doesn't say it. I think he sees a certain sensitivity and gentleness of character as being a particular outworking of a homosexual orientation. (I may be wrong in my guess, but I am really trying to 'hear' what he is saying.) I know that this is stereotyping but people with 'homosexual orientation' are often of a more artistic temperament. But I think this is a question of the chicken or the egg. Is it the 'homosexual orientation' that disposes someone to a aesthetic sensitivity OR is it the sensitivity which opens someone to the particular sin of homosexual behaviour?

I suppose I do not believe that people are born 'thieves' or 'adulterers' or 'homosexuals'. I believe they 'become' these things and I believe that every 'thief/adulterer/homosexual' knows that their first 'action' in these things is wrong. I do believe in 'congenital/original sin' as the set of the heart to disobey God but I do not believe that 'congenital sin' reveals itself in a congenital disposition to acts of homosexuality. Somewhere along they way they, and we, make our choices.

No, I do not get the impression that he is condoning the act of homosexuality but I do get the impression that he is saying that 'homosexual orientation' is congenital and I disagree with him for the reasons expressed.

I have friends who have had 'homosexual orientations' and have seen them changed. They still have their sensitivity to beauty and are naturally gentle characters but they don't have their 'homosexual orientations' and their finer qualities are not the spin-off of an homosexual orientation.


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Ron Bailey

 2005/8/30 14:30Profile
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re: born with it?

I don't think Bruxy said that he feels homosexuality is congenital. He makes the point that even IF one were born with it, is is still no reason to remain in that life style. One can be set free through Christ! Bruxy is dealing with the objections.

My eyes were opened when I read some testimonies on the Exodus site. I suddenly realized the depth of pain they endured for a long time, even from a very young age and how their orientation developed early on, and how they hated it, but at the time had no way of dealing with it. When I read the testimonies I wept over these people, and also because of my own calloused heart towards homosexuals.

There are many sinful life habits that develop very early in life, due to troubled upbringing or tramatic events or whatever. Unhealthy patterns get ingrained as a means of coping with life.

If we can grieve for the pain, shame, ridicule these people suffer with at an early age, in the schoolyard etc, then I think we are a step closer in the right direction.

The problem seems to be this: We all know that alcoholism, overeating, crime, and permiscuity are harmful way of dealing with life (that is why they are sinful), but it is harder for many to see that homosexual activity is also harmful, just like it is hard for us churched folk to see the damaging effects of hypocritical religiosity.

I don't think that Bruxy was saying that compassion sprung out of homosexual orientation. Let's admit, just because a person has a bad orrientation, doesn't mean he has no positive quaility in his personality.

Just a thought: Compassion in some may have developed through their past hurts. They know what it is like to be shunned, and so are sensitive to others who hurt. Others become hardened in their hearts. Unfortunately these are the ones who irritate and offend us intensely. They get the attention because of their aggresive behaviors.


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Diane

 2005/8/30 15:12Profile





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