SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Image Map
Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : calling all greek scholars

Print Thread (PDF)

PosterThread
saved_matt
Member



Joined: 2005/7/3
Posts: 233
Lancashire, England

 calling all greek scholars

thanks for your attention ;-)

1 scripture 2 versions:

Revelation 5:9

And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed [b]us[/b] to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
(KJV (above), LITV, ALT, EMTV, Geneva, Webster, Weymouth, Youngs)

And they sing a new song, saying, Worthy art thou to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou was slain, and didst purchase unto God with thy blood [b]men[/b] of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation,
(ISV, NIV, ASV (above), NASB, BBE, CEV, ESV, AMP, NLT)

first version is first person plural, second is third person, could have called the thread 'us and them' really.

i know this can go into the whole 'Is this the church in heaven?' debate (thats my ulterior motive,:-P after reading some of the recent stuff on this site and doing a bit of investigation myself, I'm on a knife edge between pre and post trib)

look foward to readin the responses

matt


_________________
matt

 2005/8/26 6:31Profile









 Re: calling all greek scholars

Scholars,:-P blah, that word leaves a bad taste in my mouth. A scholar's got tons of abbreviations after their names. :-(


Anyhow, it's "us" G2248 hēmas
Accusative plural of G1473; us: - our, us, we.

... but the important part is to look up to the previous verses prior to that verse 5:9, to who the "us" are. "The four beasts and four and twenty elders."

That's where folks start "spiritualizing" and strethching it to their own "choice", of who these beasts and 24 elders are.

Doesn't quite matter what I think on this, because we can't form doctrine on one verse, but only a truckload.

It's all choice, even after the truckload is dumped and displayed anyways.
Well, God said it's all "Choice", not moi.


God Bless.

 2005/8/26 7:42
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re: calling all greek scholars

Scholars? In the country of the blind the one-eyed man is king. :-D

but, as a Bible [u]student[/u], from which grade I never expect to graduate in this life...

Thanks too, for 'confessing' your ulterior motive. ;-) This is a verse which is usually contested just because of pre and post tribulation dispensationalists. I don't intend to enter into that discussion here. The reason that the different translations give either 'us' or 'men' is simply because those translations are following different families of Greek texts, known as textforms; yes, we're back to that discussion again.

These families have been used to create 'eclectic texts' in which the 'editor' has tried to reconstruct what they believe the original autograph of, in this case, John actually wrote.

[url=http://www.bible-researcher.com/rev1-11.html]Michael Marlowe's Bible Researcher[/url] website will show how different editors have decided. The page has this at Rev 5:9,10Rev 5:9. Omit "us" after "redeemed". L T A W WH N NA
Rev 5:10. Read "made them" instead of "made us". G L T Tr A W WH N NA HF The key for the initials is
S Stephens 1550 (Estienne 1550)
E Elzevir 1624
G Griesbach 1805
L Lachmann 1842
T Tischendorf 1869
Tr Tregelles 1857
A Alford 1849 as revised in 1871
W Wordsworth 1856 as revised in 1870
WH Westcott & Hort 1881
NA Nestle-Aland 1979 (Aland et al. 1979)
HF Hodges & Farstad 1982 as corrected in 1985

The key people in this discussion are
S Stephens 1550 (Estienne 1550)
E Elzevir 1624
from whom we get an edited text which is strongly committed to the Byzantine textform. Stephen's text is the one that was originally called the 'Received Text' which is behind the KJV and the NKJV.

The other key people in this discussion are
W Wordsworth 1856 as revised in 1870
WH Westcott & Hort 1881
NA Nestle-Aland 1979 (Aland et al. 1979)
HF Hodges & Farstad 1982 as corrected in 1985
Westcott & Hort's edition of the Greek text is behind the RV and the ASV. Since their time there has been a small swing back towards a respect for the Byzantine text, but WH had no time for it at all. This is why the majority of modern (post 1881!) texts will not have 'us' in Rev 5:9.

BUT, and this is important, there is a W here too. W is Christopher Wordsworth, a colleague and fellow supporter of W H Scrivener who strongly supported the Traditional Text. When W sides with WH et al against the Traditional Text it is wise to give it some thought.

The original eclectic Greek text created by Erasmus was based on some 12 or so individual manuscripts, BUT Erasmus only had one copy of the Revelation and that had holes in it and was missing the last few verses altogether. In the language of the 'scholars' the Greek text behind Revelation is 'weak'; this is not my language!!

If you wish, I can check exactly why Wordsworth took this decision, but maybe this is already deeper than you want to go.

So what do we do with such verses? I have a simple line of action to these... I accept both variants and refuse to build a doctrine on either. :-D


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/8/27 5:44Profile









 Re:

:-P Scholars are the men who "write" the books we copy from to make ourselves look smart.

And in some cases I've seen on forums, 'plagerise' from.

Don't laugh, that does happen .... I caught one & exposed him and his site had to shut down .... boy was he in lots of trouble. He even used "copywrited" stuff too.
Hand on the Bible, this is a true story.

He came on the forum to first impress and than get a following. Honest truth here, and I noticed he was nasty to me, yet his articles or whatever he wrote were written so "proper" ... that's when something didn't jive, so I found where he was getting his stuff and well, to make a long story short, he's gone somewheres (?) now.

I downloaded the threads if someone doubts this experience. Sad, very sad.
But we were trained to spot these things, I didn't do it to be mean. I cried during the whole process, but he was trying to recruit the young or young in Christ to 'himself', which is not good.

Point them to Christ and the Word, not to yourself !!!

Right ? [b]Right ![/b]:-)


Love,
Annie

 2005/8/27 11:07
saved_matt
Member



Joined: 2005/7/3
Posts: 233
Lancashire, England

 Re:

philologos

Quote:
accept both variants and refuse to build a doctrine on either.



lol i like it very diplomatic, ok ill leave this verse in the neutral box in reviewing my theology on the pre-post trib debate.

Thank you Annie and Ron for your input

may the Lord bless you

matt


_________________
matt

 2005/8/27 13:45Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
lol i like it very diplomatic


Not intended to be diplomatic, just wanting to remain open to what God might be saying...

I use 'scholars' as I would any other tool. One tool may serve me well in one context but not in another. I am not afraid of my tools; I have nothing to lose but my ignorance. I choose when to use and when not to use them; the consequent 'finished' product is mine and I accept full responsibility for it.
“My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment.” (James 3:1, NKJV)No man, who is familiar with this verse can afford to reject any gleam of truth from however unexpected a source.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/8/28 4:33Profile





©2002-2020 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Privacy Policy