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"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11

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 Re:

Brother Patrick,

Thank you for your sheer honesty on this matter. I do feel abit of an hestincy when I listen to this recording. Something definetly does not feel right and I echo some of the concerns that Chanin expressed. I am desperatly hungry for revival and an spiritual awakening but something in this recording does not align with that desperatness. May God guide and speak to us all as we seek the "better" and the "best" of what God has for us.


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2005/8/25 1:57Profile









 Re: LISTEN TO THIS!!!!

Quote:
dorcas: This is a type of voyeurism though and plays into the wrong hands.
-------------------------------------------------


dougkristen: What do you mean by this?

Curious...

Compton: There is such a thing as too much exposure...too much divulgence. This recording of children is simply too naked...

...Using these recordings of children for the sake of creating an artistic complilation, is a form of exploitation and maybe even abuse. Let consenting adults undress themselves publicly if they want…but not minors.

Compton's comments say much better one aspect of my concern.

Then, Patrick has shared about it being played to large groups of adults, to show them (the adults up) how 'prayer' should be done... :-o

Further, [i]if[/i] this was real praying, it should never have been recorded, [i]but[/i] I don't 'hear' it as 'real' prayer. :-o

Lastly, by 'in the wrong hands' I mean the fresh sounding 'cries' would be sexually arousing to some (psychologically sick) people; and putting it on the internet at all, is an unnecessary exposure - even if the kids were just acting. To my mind, it shows a serious lack of responsibility by whoever thought it was ok to use it.

Examining this idea more deeply, I'd want to know if every parent of those kids was asked individually and consented, and, whether the person with the power to publish it, was related to any of those on the recording - simply because, adults with a lack of discernment (or, a hidden agenda) have a tendency to put their own children at risk. They may have no idea they are doing this, because it's a blank spot to them, or, they know exactly what they're doing.

But, one would hope that an entire church group between them could find a way to protect their own children from this 'exposure'.

Real praying is not a performing art, but this compilation hides that.

 2005/8/25 2:18
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:Innocence

Dorcas I can't imagine any parent approving of this recording.

Quote:
Real praying is not a performing art, but this compilation hides that.



You know we've begun to equate public weeping with revival so much that perhaps prayer has become a performance art. Yet couldn't someone repent without shedding a single tear? Or are emotional displays like this the measure and proof of our repentance to each other? Such orphaned anguished pleas seem more fitting for the false priests on Mt. Carmel then for little children of God.

Perhaps, if there is a thing as precious and fragile as holiness...it is innocence. Let's not crush our children with the sins of the whole world and then say "my, look at those tears! I couldn't be more pleased!"

Now in case some think I am against children crying out to God or repenting for their sins let me share this brief story. I have a Christian friend who recently made the mistake of traveling through Las Vegas with her 13 year old son on her way out west. She had believed the advertisements that Las Vegas had some family attractions. They only stayed a couple hours because the "family attractions" were populated with scantily clad women everywhere. Later that night, in the hotel room the young man broke down in tears to his mother. He felt his soul darkened by what he had experienced and expressed how his heart hurt over seeing sinful things that he had never seen before. These are precious tears of innocence lost that break a parents heart.

This inexperience with the world is an inestimable foundation for Godly living in our children...laying the knowledge of the sins of the whole world on them is disfunctional and selfish. A childs innocence is a precious and fleeting gift that will become a keepsake to them in later spiritual battles. Remembering it's sweet taste can help break their hearts over the bitterness of sin later in life.

Maybe only parents of young children, who gaurd over this precious keepsake everyday, can understand this. I just hope this type of thing is an isolated event and not a new trend in the church like barking and gold tooth fillings.

MC


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Mike Compton

 2005/8/25 3:55Profile









 Re: LISTEN TO THIS!!!!

Quote:
listen to 'A New Generation of Children in America'

I'd forgotten the compilation was called this, but Compton reminded me.
Quote:
I just hope this type of thing is an isolated event and not a new trend in the church

He also said

Quote:
Later that night, in the hotel room the young man broke down in tears to his mother. He felt his soul darkened by what he had experienced and expressed how his heart hurt over seeing sinful things that he had never seen before. [b]These are tears of innocence lost[/b]. This innocence is what is most precious in our children...laying the burden for the sins of the whole world on them is disfunctional and selfish.

Something similar happened in my son's CHRISTIAN school. An ex-pupil who had completed first year at University, brought 20 of [i][b]her[/b][/i] paintings to display, including three nudes. The Headmaster in his wisdom, thought the dining room would be a good place to hang them. This caused so much loss of appetite in my son's group (the 11 yearolds) and concern (as he had had personal safety training) that he mentioned it at home. Immediately, I made an appointment to see the Head, and I could tell he did not capitulate until about half an hour before he met me, having asked an experienced female teacher of the youngest group, whether she agreed with me or him. Praise God for his honesty. He had them taken down before lunch time that day.

His blank spot had been his French spouse and an acceptance of cultural nudity on French beaches. Because [i]his[/i] children had been brought up with this in [i]safety[/i], he was genuinely resistant to the possibility of distress.

Quote:
Maybe only parents of young children, who watch this precious keepsake everyday, can understand this.

Without doubt it is the life experience of my children and myself, which has formed the opinion I've expressed here. Abuse renders children (and adults) vulnerable to be abused again. The basis of teaching them how to deal with such situations in future, if possible without re-traumatising them, is a subtle business. This is one issue.

Another issue, is that children who have not been abused, are nowadays abused by overt warnings and sex education, which today's adults somehow manage to justify to themselves, even though in so doing, many break the rules of engagement for discussing such things safely with children, and thus place on them the sort of burden to which Compton refers - the sin of the world.

NOW, this compilation brings another thought to my mind, that here is the [i]same[/i] generation of adults absolving itself of responsibility for keeping its children [i]spiritually[/i] safe, by making an idol of their performance in church. Hideous.

Quote:
Yet couldn't someone repent without shedding a single tear?

Yes. Let no-one say tears are essential for repentance. What matters is a heart's communication with the living God, in which a new understanding is reached - an understanding that is kept (treasured) by both parties.

 2005/8/25 4:30
mtembezi
Member



Joined: 2004/10/28
Posts: 66
Nairobi, Kenya

 Re: LISTEN TO THIS!!!!

I defer to the parents wisdom, as I haven't had experience nurturing my own children. I don't know how old the kids in the recording were. I don't have authority to to speak about what age is right to expose kids to certain things (obviously) :-).

Perhaps the question issue should be "Why compilations?" Compilations are made to bring a certain point strongly.
I don't know how right that is.

But if these children were sincere –I've no reason to believe they weren't– then to me it's a good thing, for obvious reasons. Whatever the motive of creating the compilation.

Isn't it within the realm of possibility for children to have a great burden from the Lord?

I have known children who were Spirit–filled and speaking in tongues at a very tender age (8-9). I know a child who preached at that age, stopped fight in schools and at her early teens prayed (for a season) for hours. I know a little kid of 5 who prays for healing of adults and other kids.
I know their prarents too. And they are far from irresponsible, or 'unreasonable' in spiritual things.
I know that others know such children.

The orphanages where I've heard hundreds of kids praying in unison, or seeing them used to having intense praise and worship for hours is a humbling experience.

Maybe I've got it all wrong. But I know of very few kids who understand the things these children so easily pray about.


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Richard Walker

 2005/8/25 14:25Profile
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Quote:
Perhaps the question issue should be "Why compilations?" Compilations are made to bring a certain point strongly.



I don't believe compilations per se are the moral issue here...I think they can be a fine form of artistic and spiritual expression.

Quote:
Isn't it within the realm of possibility for children to have a great burden from the Lord?



Certainly! I want to be careful here and not broaden this point into a policy of spiritual insulation for children. That would be a mistake. The examples you shared of children praying and even preaching in your last posting seem like precious moments in the Lord.

Really, my discussion points are focused on this recording...the things the children were saying seemed too adult for them. Furthermore...I am disturbed that a child can display the impassioned emotional intimacy of a lover at such ages as these little ones sound like.

I am just old enough to remember singing reverent hymns in church...I can remember feeling a little uncomfortable hearing the new style of charismatic worship that seem to introduce a romantic intimacy into church services. Nowadays, this mode of "Song of Solomon" public intercourse with Jesus is acceptable stuff in our worship and prayer services...however I think we need to remember that some of our adult expressions and behavior are unnatural for children.

We should teach them to pray as children who respect and trust their Father...not as forlorn lovers aching for their beloved.

Blessings,

MC


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Mike Compton

 2005/8/25 15:57Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
I can't imagine the long term effects of this on these children.


I managed less than 5 seconds listening to this. It cuts through my spirit like a knife. I share your anxieties for their wellbeing.


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Ron Bailey

 2005/8/25 16:09Profile
allhavsinned
Member



Joined: 2005/8/1
Posts: 201
North West England

 Re:

Like Saved_Matt originally, when I first listened to this I was awed that kids could call upon God like adults, I have two girls, 10 and 6 and I thought if I was a good Christian parent I could encourage them to be like this before God. However, after reading this thread, I listened a couple more times to this track. What came to mind was when, as a teenager myself, I was in a cult with my mum for about a year, I recall, not necessarily kids, but people straining to call out to God, I did it myself thinking about the blind man who wouldn't be hushed. But the spirit behind it was unworthiness and a feeling of condemnation for sins that had already been forgiven. It is hard to imagine such young children could feel so great a burden of sin without an adult in authority over them continually pushing them into repentance with threats that are not from a loving heart. Like I said I have been there and this sounds very similar. Just my 2 cents.


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Ste

 2005/8/25 20:55Profile
HopeinChrist
Member



Joined: 2005/8/8
Posts: 256


 Re: LISTEN TO THIS!!!!

After reading many of your comments concerning this recording, I have also paused to take a closer look. I have thought on this quite a bit today and have been seeking the heart of God on it. Many have made some very sobering observations which I have taken seriously, but I believe we are making conclusions based on a very limited bit of information. I first heard this recording quite a while back and I remember quite well my reaction to it at the time. I would like to share it, as I think it brings a different perspective. I am a mother of 3, ages 18, 15 and 3. The older two were preteen/teen age before I began to "work out my own salvation" and become serious about serving & seeking the Lord. Although they were exposed to religion, God was never a priority, but rather something that was worked in when convenient.(Prayer was for Thanksgiving/Christmas dinner or if there was some tragedy.) They now have a numb, apathetic attitude toward spiritual things. They are too fascinated by the world. (both of them would name the name of Christ, but.....) I am standing in the gap for them and know God has heard my cries. I am waiting upon the Lord and believing not only for their salvation but that God will be glorified by their life and testimony. My 3 year old however has been exposed to, immersed in and surrounded by prayer since the womb, both corporately and privately. I have always felt that this would be of great spiritual benefit to her. I/we may not always pray with the fervency that is heard on this compilation, but at times I/we do. It has been my personal experience that there is often times an unexplainable unction to prayer, like a fire inside that has to be spoken. Because if this, when I heard the compilation my thoughts were that these children had been exposed to and surrounded by intense corporate prayer for years and they simply caught the fire. It doesn't mean that they are (quote) kept in this extreme emotional state or weep continuously in anguish over all that's wrong with themselves and the world. (end quote) Perhaps it is a possibility, but I have a hard time imagining that to be the case. We can't really make a judgement by just hearing this recording. We don't know these children or their families. They could be extremely well adjusted kids who love Jesus and don't want to see their friends go to hell. Sounds like someone God could use. (quote) There are enough adults in this world that the Lord may use and touch and get through to. (end quote) I wouldn't be too sure.
Eze. 22:30 And I sought for a man among them, that should make up the hedge, and stand in the gap before me for the land, that I should not destroy it: but I found none.

Luke 19:40 And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out. (I know this is not referring to intercession but it was laid on my heart)

Isa 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.

Just some things to consider.
Hope

 2005/8/26 0:11Profile
saved_matt
Member



Joined: 2005/7/3
Posts: 233
Lancashire, England

 Re:

I'll be honest i originally posted this beacuse the audio brought me to tears, (not a very common thing with me sadly), i appreciate the air of responses put on this thread and i understand how this audio is definitely invasive to both the children recorded and their families.

But as has already been stated we don't know the origin of the recording, it could have been done with parental consent, but equally it could not. The fact that it has been posted on a website though does after reflection trouble me, i think it was Dorcas who said it could be exploited by sexual perverts, this hadn't occured to me but now it does trouble me.

Also peoples personal experience with this type of thing like allhavsinned, does bring the nature of the recording into even more glaring light.

I feel the recording needs to be set in deeper context by anyone offering it for download, but again all the context in the world won't stop it being exploited.

matt


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matt

 2005/8/26 6:03Profile





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