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philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Yes, some.??"For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh. EVen for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. There fore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth." (Romans 9:17-18)

We have been around this topic so many times I initially thought I would steer clear of it, but there is an idea here (later confirmed by Krispy) that I would like to challenge.

Firstly, there is no indication that Paul has personal salvation in mind when referring to Pharaoh; this is earthly destiny not eternal which is in view. The same is true of Esau, where the statement 'Esau have I hated was not declared until approx 1200 years after Esau was laid in his grave. In fact the original shows quite plainly that it is the 'nation' that sprung from Esau which is in prophetic view rather than the individual.

The word 'harden' as relating to Pharaoh also needs some examination. Gen. 48:2 (KJVS)
And one told Jacob, and said, Behold, thy son Joseph cometh unto thee: and Israel [u]strengthened[/u] himself, and sat upon the bed. This is the word which is translated 'hardened' throughout the Exodus in relation to Pharaoh. It is, apparently, from a root which means to strengthen. The truth we see here is not that of 'a pre-scripted response' but that God 'strengthened' Pharaoh. It seems to me that Pharaoh fully made up his own mind and that God 'facilitated' this by giving Pharaoh the strength to go through with it.

This concept may sound a little strange but if you recall the story of the prodigal son you will remember that it was the father who 'facilitated' the younger son's rebellion. He could not have taken his journey into the 'far country' unless he had been 'empowered' by his father. “And the younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth to me. And he divided unto them his living. And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living.” (Luke 15:12-13, KJVS) That does not mean that the father 'willed' it, anymore than it means that God 'willed' Pharaoh's rebellious stance. I feel sure that Pharaoh would have 'chickened out' from what he really wanted to do, but God strengthened his heart.

The ultimate challenge in this whole concept is Satan himself. All created things are constantly sustained by God present power. Satan's choices are his own; he was not predestined to stage his rebellion. But his daily 'empowering' must come from the only source of life and power. These are mysterious things and we must take our comfort in that fact that God's thoughts are not ours. He is utterly just and righteous and good and gracious, and a day is coming when we may understand these things. But in the meantime I think we should be cautious about God having created some for eternal torment.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/8/24 11:40Profile
dann
Member



Joined: 2005/2/16
Posts: 239
Winnipeg, Manitoba Canada

 Re:

I believe God is sovereign in election - that is, that God chooses who goes to heaven and who goes to hell - and that this choice was made before the world was ever created - and furthermore that it was not that God 'looked forward' to see who would come to Christ - but that God determined beforehand exactly whom He would redeem, and whom He would not.

Dan
/\/
\/\


_________________
Daniel van de Laar

 2005/8/24 12:02Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
But in the meantime I think we should be cautious about God having created some for eternal torment.



Any doctrine that we come up with must be entirely consistent with the whole of the revelation of God's divine attributes. If that doctrine is not consistent with the light we have concerning God, we must go back to the drawing board. Those who hold the doctrine of unconditional election ultimately make God the author of sin and the father of lies. The author of sin- because it must needs be that He had decreed it and the father of lies because the whole of our understanding of what it means to love has been twisted beneath our breast as such that what we esteem is evil is good and what we esteem as good is evil.

This is the danger of ever considering God to have elected anyone to eternal damnation- especially apart from their own decision to choose 'this day' whom they would serve. It is all one big huge mockery if things are as preplanned and mechanical as this. Better would it be to say that the passages in question made no sense at all as to say they made a sense such as this.

The whole doctrine leaves out many passages concerning man's responsibility to choose rightly and militates against the conscience. When we suggest that God is motivated by our definition of sovereignty first, and [u]not[/u] that which we consciously understand to be genuine agape love, we have made Satan into God and God into Satan. If I cannot trust my faculties as I bring them into harmony with the history of man in scripture, then I may well not believe hell to be a bad place. But God's word is also a revelation of man's condition and we can use it to adjust our conscience alongside the Holy Spirit to have the mind of Christ. And with the Holy Spirit bearing witness in my heart I cannot accept that God had unconditionally damned anyone. If I defend God in great zeal let it be that I defend Him in His sovereign right to save man from sin who would come to Him in saving faith; but God forbid that I would zealously defend a God that would eternally damn sinners to a hell unconditionally when He has already said He is not willing that any perish- but that all come to repentance. If our doctrines don't jibe with II Peter 3:9 they have to be discarded and reworked.

[i]The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.[/i] (II Peter 3:9)

God Bless,

-Robert


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2005/8/24 12:27Profile









 Re: Hardened

The thing about both the Hebrew or Greek words, unlike our English words, they seldom have just one definition.

So it's important to look and see 'How Else' and 'Where Else', the particular word is used.

Taking first ... Exo 4:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will [u]harden H2388[/u] his heart, that he shall not let the people go.

Look up H2388 in your Strong's Dictionary, and see how many ways it can be interpreted.

The ways and places are listed here ...

H2388
חזק
châzaq
Total KJV Occurrences: 309
strong, 48
Deu_11:8, Deu_31:6-7 (2), Deu_31:23, Jos_1:6-7 (2), Jos_1:9, Jos_1:18, Jos_10:25, Jos_17:13, Jdg_1:28, 1Sa_4:9, 2Sa_3:6, 2Sa_10:11 (2), 2Sa_11:25, 2Sa_16:21, 1Ki_2:2, 1Ch_22:12-13 (3), 1Ch_28:10, 1Ch_28:20, 2Ch_11:12, 2Ch_15:7, 2Ch_16:9, 2Ch_25:8, 2Ch_26:15, 2Ch_32:7, Ezr_9:12, Isa_28:22, Isa_35:4, Jer_51:12, Eze_22:14 (2), Eze_30:21, Dan_10:19 (2), Dan_11:5 (2), Dan_11:32, Nah_2:1, Nah_3:14, Hag_2:4 (3), Zec_8:9, Zec_8:13
repaired, 39
2Ki_12:6, 2Ki_12:14, 2Ch_29:3, 2Ch_32:5, Neh 3:4-24 (27), Neh_3:27-32 (8)
hold, 35
Gen_19:16, Gen_21:18, Exo_9:2, Jdg_19:29, 1Sa_15:27, 2Sa_13:11 (2), 2Sa_18:9, 1Ki_1:50, 1Ki_2:28, 1Ki_9:9, 2Ki_2:12, 2Ch_7:22, Job_8:15, Job_27:6, Psa_35:2, Pro_3:18, Pro_4:13, Isa_4:1, Isa_27:5, Isa_41:13, Isa_42:6, Isa_56:2, Isa_56:4, Isa_64:6-7 (2), Jer_6:23-24 (2), Jer_8:5, Jer_8:21, Jer_50:42-43 (2), Zec_8:23 (2), Zec_14:13
strengthened, 28
Gen_48:2, Jdg_3:12, Jdg_7:11, 1Sa_23:16, 2Sa_2:7, 1Ch_11:10, 2Ch_1:1, 2Ch_11:17, 2Ch_12:13, 2Ch_17:1, 2Ch_21:4, 2Ch_23:1, 2Ch_25:11, 2Ch_26:8, 2Ch_28:20, 2Ch_32:5, Ezr_1:6, Ezr_7:28, Neh_2:18, Job_4:3, Psa_147:13, Eze_13:22, Eze_34:4, Dan_10:18-19 (3), Dan_11:6, Hos_7:15
strengthen, 14
Jdg_16:28, 1Ki_20:22, Ezr_6:22, Neh_6:9, Isa_22:21, Isa_33:23, Isa_35:3, Isa_54:2, Jer_23:14, Eze_7:13, Eze_16:49, Eze_30:24-25 (2), Eze_34:16

hardened, 9
Exo_7:13, Exo_7:22, Exo_8:19, Exo_9:12, Exo_9:35, Exo_10:20, Exo_10:27, Exo_11:10, Exo_14:8

take, 9
Psa_35:2, Pro_4:13, Isa_4:1, Isa_27:5-6 (2), Isa_56:4, Isa_64:7, Zec_8:23 (2)
caught, 8
Exo_4:4, 1Sa_17:35, 2Sa_2:16, 2Sa_18:9, 1Ki_1:50, 1Ki_2:28, 2Ki_4:27, Pro_7:13
courage, 8
Num_13:20, 2Sa_10:12, 1Ch_19:13, 2Ch_15:8, Ezr_10:4, Psa_27:14, Psa_31:24, Isa_41:6
prevailed, 8
Gen_47:20, 1Sa_17:50, 2Sa_24:4, 1Ki_16:22, 2Ki_25:3, 1Ch_21:4, 2Ch_8:3, 2Ch_27:5
repair, 8
2Ki_12:5, 2Ki_12:7-8 (2), 2Ki_12:12, 2Ki_22:5-6 (2), 2Ch_24:5, 2Ch_34:8
held, 6
Jdg_7:20, Jdg_16:26, Neh_4:16-17 (2), Neh_4:21, Jer_50:33
stronger, 6
2Sa_13:14, 1Ki_20:23 (2), 1Ki_20:25, Jer_20:7, Jer_31:11
encouraged, 5
Jdg_20:22, 1Sa_30:6, 2Ch_31:4, 2Ch_35:2, Isa_41:7
taken, 5
1Ki_9:9, Isa_41:9, Jer_6:24, Jer_8:21, Mic_4:9
encourage, 4
Deu_1:38, Deu_3:28, 2Sa_11:25, Psa_64:5

harden, 4
Exo_4:21, Exo_14:4, Exo_14:17, Jos_11:20

sore, 4
Gen_41:56-57 (2), 2Ki_3:26, Jer_52:6
taketh, 4
Deu_25:11, Isa_51:17-18 (2), Isa_56:6
took, 4
Jdg_19:25, 2Sa_15:5, 2Ch_28:15, Jer_31:32
calkers, 2
Eze_27:9, Eze_27:27
confirm, 2
2Ki_15:19, Dan_11:1
courageous, 2
Jos_23:6, 2Sa_13:28
fortified, 2
2Ch_11:11, 2Ch_26:9
help, 2
2Ch_29:34, Job_8:20
holdeth, 2
Job_2:3, Dan_10:21
mighty, 2
2Ch_13:21, 2Ch_27:6
prevail, 2
Job_18:9, Dan_11:7
retained, 2
Jdg_7:7-8 (2), Jdg_19:4
withstand, 2
2Ch_13:7-8 (2)
aided, 1
Jdg_9:24
amend, 1
2Ch_34:10
became, 1
2Ch_27:6
behave, 1
1Ch_19:13
clave, 1
Neh_10:29
confirmed, 1
2Ki_14:5
constant, 1
1Ch_28:7
constrained, 1
2Ki_4:8
continued, 1
Neh_5:16
courageously, 1
2Ch_19:11
established, 1
2Ch_25:3
fasten, 1
Jer_10:3-4 (2)
fastened, 1
Isa_41:7
force, 1
Deu_22:25
fortify, 1
Nah_3:14

harder, 1
Jer_5:3

holden, 1
Isa_45:1
leaneth, 1
2Sa_3:29
maintain, 1
1Ch_26:27
men, 1
2Sa_10:12
mend, 1
2Ch_24:12
obtain, 1
Dan_11:21
received, 1
2Ch_4:5
recovered, 1
Isa_39:1
relieve, 1
Lev_25:35
retain, 1
Job_2:9
retaineth, 1
Mic_7:18
seized, 1
Jer_49:24
stout, 1
Mal_3:13
strength, 1
1Ch_29:12
sure, 1
Deu_12:23
urgent, 1
Exo_12:33
valiantly, 1
1Ch_19:13


If we say, that châzaq, does not mean Harden(ed), than that would contradict Romans 9:18, and Scripture never contradicts Scripture.

The word for "hardeneth" used in the N.T. and in this Rom. 9:18 is G4645 - sklērunō, which always is translated and defined as .....

harden, 3
Heb_3:8, Heb_3:15, Heb_4:7
hardened, 2
Act_19:9, Heb_3:13
hardeneth, 1
Rom_9:18



This is called "word studies" not "word games".


Although I do like Scrabble a lot. 8-)

 2005/8/24 12:54
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, [u]harden not your hearts[/u]. (Hebrews 4:7)

[u]Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.[/u] (Romans 9:18)

How can we reconcile these?

Man's role in his own hardening is that he/she resists the Holy Ghost. Genesis 6 states that God's Spirit will not always strive with man for he is also mortal. Man resists as his role and God ceases to strive as His role in the hardening process. TODAY if you will hear His voice harden not your hearts. How do we harden? By always resisting the Holy Ghost. Resisting the Holy Ghost makes for fallow ground. The drier the heart the harder the heart until it all becomes as 'dust'.

Who did the hardening? Pharoah? YES! or God? YES! Pharoah resisted the Holy Ghost until God obliged him and left him to himself. Left to himself man is capable of anything. Man without a conscience is not an animal he is a devil. What happens? Man says God I don't like you in my thoughts- so God says OK, then I'll leave. And when He leaves man is 'given over' to a reprobate mind to 'do' those things that are not convenient- no mattter what the context or situation. They do what they would not have done had they been restrained by the Holy Spirit. Hardening as I see it is the extinguishing of the voice of God and God responding to that extinguishing by complying with the sinners will. my Spirit will not ALWAYS strive- therefor TODAY if you will hear His voice- harden not your heart.

God Bless,

-Robert


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2005/8/24 13:25Profile
Marc_W
Member



Joined: 2005/6/3
Posts: 18
London Zone 3

 Re:

Praise God Dan that your not God, no offense intended ;-)

If there was predestined salvation, whats the point in serving God, your either saved or doomed either way, I mean, you can't get in and you can't get out, so either way you might as well let your flesh rule! Calv's list, on or off! No, no, no , no - this can't be so! The Word clearly says Jesus died for all! All that would recieve the Son would have Life and life eternal!

Phew..... thank God for His loving mercy, grace and kindness!

By the way, if you think your called to be saved over those that are called to be cast into hell, how do you know your on the "in list" over the "out list?" Maybe your just wasting what little time you have serving a ruthless God :-o

Again, no offense intended, just trying to make point, in-love I hope :-)


_________________
Marc Wheway

 2005/8/24 13:31Profile
markitats
Member



Joined: 2004/3/12
Posts: 92
Springdale AR

 Re:

Quote:
If there was predestined salvation, whats the point in serving God


To answer your question; because God is worthy to be served even if at the end of the road we go to hell. The lamb that was slain is worthy to be lived for regardless of what happens at judgment. I know these are hard words, but the truth. If we simply live for Jesus based upon the presupposition that we will go to Heaven at the end of the road that seems pretty selfish. Not that we shouldn’t expect to because we have that blessed promise, but again, it’s not about you and I, but Gods glory. Blessings!


_________________
Mark

 2005/8/24 14:11Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

I don't want to get into another wrangle but in the interests of scripture interpretation let me try to explain how we learn the use of Bible words. The Hebrew word chazaq is used, according to my Accordance Software, 290 times. The following list will give you a feel for the word. As you say, many words have more than one meaning, and it sometimes takes more than one word to translate another. This little list will show that of all the ideas that are built into chazaq some predominate in the OT translation. Total number of verses = 266
(total number of verses displayed = 266)

[KEY H2388] (290 total words)

aided = 1
H2388 chazaq = 1
amend = 1
H2388 chazaq = 1
calkers = 2
H2388 chazaq
caught = 5
H2388 chazaq = 5
clave = 1
H2388 chazaq = 1
confirm = 2
H2388 chazaq = 2
confirmed = 1
H2388 chazaq = 1
constant = 1
H2388 chazaq = 1
constrained = 1
H2388 chazaq = 1
continued = 1
H2388 chazaq = 1
courage = 8
H2388 chazaq = 8
courageous = 2
H2388 chazaq = 2
courageously = 1
H2388 chazaq = 1
encourage = 4
H2388 chazaq = 4
encouraged = 5
H2388 chazaq = 5
established = 1
H2388 chazaq = 1
fasten = 1
H2388 chazaq = 1
fastened = 1
H2388 chazaq = 1
force = 1
H2388 chazaq = 1
fortified = 2
H2388 chazaq = 2
fortify = 1
H2388 chazaq = 1
harden = 4
H2388 chazaq = 4
hardened = 9
H2388 chazaq = 9
harder = 1
H2388 chazaq = 1
held = 6
H2388 chazaq = 6
help = 2
H2388 chazaq = 1
H2388 chazaq
hold = 35
H2388 chazaq = 35
holden = 1
H2388 chazaq = 1
holdeth = 2
H2388 chazaq = 2
leaneth = 1
H2388 chazaq = 1
maintain = 1
H2388 chazaq = 1
men = 1
H2388 chazaq = 1
mend = 1
H2388 chazaq = 1
mighty = 2
H2388 chazaq = 2
obtain = 1
H2388 chazaq = 1
prevail = 2
H2388 chazaq = 2
prevailed = 8
H2388 chazaq = 8
received = 1
H2388 chazaq = 1
recovered = 1
H2388 chazaq = 1
relieve = 1
H2388 chazaq = 1
repair = 8
H2388 chazaq = 8
repaired = 39
H2388 chazaq = 39
retain = 1
H2388 chazaq = 1
retained = 2
H2388 chazaq = 2
retaineth = 1
H2388 chazaq = 1
seized = 1
H2388 chazaq = 1
sore = 4
H2388 chazaq = 4
stout = 1
H2388 chazaq = 1
strength = 1
H2388 chazaq = 1
Strengthen = 1
H2388 chazaq = 1
strengthen = 13
H2388 chazaq = 13
strengthened = 28
H2388 chazaq = 28
strong = 48
H2388 chazaq = 48
stronger = 5
H2388 chazaq = 5
sure = 1
H2388 chazaq = 1
taken = 2
H2388 chazaq = 2
taketh = 3
H2388 chazaq = 3
took = 4
H2388 chazaq = 4
urgent = 1
H2388 chazaq = 1
valiantly = 1
H2388 chazaq = 1
withstand = 2
H2388 chazaq = 2Of the 290 times the English OT has opted for words linked with 'harden' about 14 times. While words directly linked to 'strengthen' count for almost a 100 instances. Not only that, but the word is sometimes translated, help, encourage,confirm, help, hold, fortify etc account for most of the others. It is plain from this predominance that the translators usually sought for a word along the lines of 'making strong' when they wanted an English word for chazaq.

This would agree with the general understanding of chazaq2388. chazaq, khaw-zak´; a primitive root; to fasten upon; hence, to seize, be strong (figuratively, courageous, causatively strengthen, cure, help, repair, fortify), obstinate; to bind, restrain, conquer:—aid, amend, x calker, catch, cleave, confirm, be constant, constrain, continue, be of good (take) courage(-ous, -ly), encourage (self), be established, fasten, force, fortify, make hard, harden, help, (lay) hold (fast), lean, maintain, play the man, mend, become (wax) mighty, prevail, be recovered, repair, retain, seize, be (wax) sore, strengthen (self), be stout, be (make, shew, wax) strong(-er), be sure, take (hold), be urgent, behave self valiantly, withstand.

Now what about Rom 9:18? sklErunO certainly means to 'harden' but it is interesting to note that Paul is almost certainly quoting Exodus. In fact, this is the word ,sklErunO, which is used in Exodus 4:21 in the Septuagint that Paul almost certainly had in mind at this point in Romans.

This brings us to an important biblical concept. That Bible words do not have definitions, so much as histories. This is the kind of phenomena we find when we examine a word like 'metanoia' meaning repentance. If we just took the Greek dictionary definition of the word we would conclude that the word means a 'change of mind'. But if we consider its history we discover that the word is used in the Septuagint to translate the Hebrew word nacham; but nacham means much more than a 'change of mind' it has anguish in it, a gasp, a sigh, a groan. The whole sense of grief which is missing from the Greek word is found in the Hebrew word. This means that whenever we examine a Greek word we need not only to find its definition but to ascertain how a Hebrew would have used it. The NT use of metanoia always has the acquired Hebrew sense of 'grief' within it.

Similarly, I would suggest, that when sklErunO is used to translate 'chazaq' we must carry into our understanding of 'harden' the acquired Hebrew sense of 'strengthen'. It is probably instructive that the NT only ever uses the word 'sklErunO' in the terms of heart responses.Acts 19:9 (KJVS)
But when divers were hardened, and believed not, but spake evil of that way before the multitude, he departed from them, and separated the disciples, disputing daily in the school of one Tyrannus.

Rom. 9:18 (KJVS)
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Heb. 3:8 (KJVS)
Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:

Heb. 3:13 (KJVS)
But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

Heb. 3:15 (KJVS)
While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

Heb. 4:7 (KJVS)
Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. It is important to remember that when the NT uses the word 'sklErunO' it is against an OT understanding of that concept, and the OT concept includes the sense of 'being strengthened'.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/8/24 14:20Profile









 Re:

Oh shucks, I signed back on to compliment Robert for his bang-up job and here's my buddy Philo.

Philo ~ 'Context-comparative' - "Only Scripture can interpret Scripture and never Contradicts itself ... anywheres."

So again ...

If we say, that châzaq, does not mean Harden(ed), than that would contradict Romans 9:18, and Scripture never contradicts Scripture.

The word for "hardeneth" used in the N.T. and in this Rom. 9:18 is G4645 - sklērunō, which always is translated and defined as .....

harden, 3
Heb_3:8, Heb_3:15, Heb_4:7
hardened, 2
Act_19:9, Heb_3:13
hardeneth, 1
Rom_9:18


Marc & Clueless did a good job too, besides Robert, who explained it best.

The same sun that "hardens" Clay, Melts "ICE".

And again, I recommend Shank's books.

Adios Amigo.
Hasta tonight-o.

Te Amo mucho.

(and what my 2 grandbabies call me Robert :)...
Grannie Annie

 2005/8/24 14:30
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
(and what my 2 grandbabies call me Robert :)...
Grannie Annie



Now I get it.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2005/8/24 14:33Profile





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