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dougkristen
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Joined: 2004/1/28
Posts: 360


 Has God predestined some for hell?

I was having a discussion about this with someone and the question they asked was, "How can God create someone when He knew they were predestined for hell?"

Thoughts?

In Christ,
Doug


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a Jesus freak

 2005/8/23 23:20Profile
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 Re: Has God predestined some for hell?

Yes, some.

"For the scripture saith unto Pharoah. EVen for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. There fore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth." (Romans 9:17-18)


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2005/8/24 2:55Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Yes, some.


Quote:
"For the scripture saith unto Pharoah. EVen for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. There fore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth." (Romans 9:17-18)



I am not necessarily disputing this as my grasp on scripture is probably loads behind you and probably a lot of people on this forum but I jsut find it really hard to believe that God would actually make a person in order that they would go to hell. I mean, Judas betrayed Jesus and because of that He went to the cross and died for us al but I can't believe that God needs man to carry out His purpose and that, if there hadn't been someone to betray Him then He wouldn't have been able to die for us. I guess what I am saying is that I can't believe that not every single person has a chance of eternal life as that wouldn't be fair.

Sorry - I don't want to argue really I just don't understand and would stuggle with this concept.

Liz

 2005/8/24 3:35









 Re:

I don't believe in Predestination ... but I believe in the ForeKnowledge of God.

With Pharoah, God knew his heart and what he'd do.

They say, the same sun that hardens clay - melts ice. It's the "heart condition" that either "hardens" under conviction of God or melts.

God knew Pharoah's heart or what Pharoah would do.

Nevertheless, it is all turned to the Glory of God, and His Purpose.


Foreknowledge, is different from Predestination ... in that it shows us that we all still have a Freewill.

If the Lord, speaks of something, like Judas, as the son of perdition, with foreknowledge ... knowing ahead what Judas would do in the end ... I don't think that he predestined him or created him to do that ...

Just as HE did not create Satan to fall.

Nor Adam.

Freewill all the way.


 2005/8/24 3:48









 Re:

I agree with sermonindex... I think some are. Look at Hitler. Probably one of the most evil men in the history of mankind. Yet, God accomplished some things because of Hitler that has helped to bring about prophetic end times events. Best example is the creation of Israel, and the gathering together of the Jewish people from all corners of the earth. That would not have happened had it not been for WWII and Hitler.

Krispy

 2005/8/24 6:03
taco
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Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 211


 Re:

Quote:
Yes, [b]some[/b].



but Paul said:

"[God]would have all men to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth."

This question is really an other way of looking at the arminianism/calvinism issue. Seems to have been covered many times here. I don't understand all the workings of God in election and predestination but I do know somthing of the heart of God as demonstrated in his son. Even though the jews crucified Christ according to the predtermined will of God (Peter's sermon in acts). The Lord's [b]desire[/b] was to gather them as a hen gathers her chicks - but they would not come.

 2005/8/24 6:14Profile









 Re:

I reckon, the two best Textbooks, used in Non-reformed theology Bible Colleges, would be "Elect in the Son" and "Life in the Son", by Robert Shank.


It'd be hard to argue for predestination after reading them.

though of course, it still goes on.



 2005/8/24 6:35









 Re:

Quote:
I agree with sermonindex... I think some are. Look at Hitler. Probably one of the most evil men in the history of mankind. Yet, God accomplished some things because of Hitler that has helped to bring about prophetic end times events. Best example is the creation of Israel, and the gathering together of the Jewish people from all corners of the earth. That would not have happened had it not been for WWII and Hitler.



I am not sure that I believe that Hitler was predestined for hell or that his heart state was any less qualified for salvation than the rest of us (meaning that none of us qualify). I believe that there would have been opportunity for even people like Hitler to repent. Sure I believe that God uses even the bad to bring good but not at the expense of someones possible salvation. I can't believe that God would look at someone and say to Himself 'oh that person may repent but, since I need him for a purpose that would condem him to hell then I will have to lose that one' Do you see what I mean? I reckon God would only use the people who He already knew had and would always reject Him in their hearts but not that they wouldn't have had the opportunity to accept Him.

 2005/8/24 6:37









 Re:

This is why I usually try to avoid discussion about perdestination... trying to understand the topic is like nailing jello to the wall. I am [b]not[/b] a Calvinist. But I do believe God is in control, and has forknowledge.

I dont know... I regret having gotten involved in this thread... LOL

Krispy

 2005/8/24 6:46
Marc_W
Member



Joined: 2005/6/3
Posts: 18
London Zone 3

 Re:

My thoughts....

God is a legal God, therefore cannot maintain 'selective salvation' the devil has to play by Gods rules and God has to keep them too. It comes down to CHOICE, personal between light and darkness. Really it comes back to 'why did God put the tree of knowlegde in the garden' CHOICE, otherwise we would be mere puppets.

God is a God of LOVE, therefore no evil can be in Him, to create for the purpose to destroy is not of God. Select salavation is not of God, its your personal choice and yours alone. Yes God knows, but He has done all He can to prepare the way thru His Son, the rest is up to you!

God knows the heart from beginning to end, but still gives you every oppertunity to repent and turn. God would have it that NONE should perish, but cannot and will not deny you of your personal choice and right to choose for your self. Rom 1 says ALL have seen the Lord thru His creation, that none are without excuse!

Blessing....


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Marc Wheway

 2005/8/24 8:08Profile





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