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ColinM
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 3


 Re:

2 Pet 1:21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

1 Peter 1:10As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries, 11seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow. 12It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven--things into which angels long to look.

Acts 3:18"But the things which God announced beforehand by the mouth of all the prophets, that His Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled"

2 Sam 23:2"The Spirit of the LORD spoke by me,
And His word was on my tongue."


How could a prophet prophecy his God's message by inspiration, using his own thoughts and words, if he did not always know what he was writing about?

Scripture is clear: THE WORD is Jesus, and the word is the Scriptures:our Bible. To assume that this one english word can only mean Jesus, HS, and not the Scriptures is bad interpretation.


John 15:7
"If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you

John 8:31So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine;
32and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."




Jesus said if His word abides in us, then we will know the truth, and the truth will set us free. What is His word? The Spirit abiding in us, and HIS COMMANDMENTS abiding in us (JOhn 14:15; 1 John 2:4)

 2005/8/23 14:32Profile









 Re:

ccchhhrrriiisss... A very gracious response, even though I disagree on some of your points.

Even tho we dont see eye to eye, unlike extremist KJV-O's, I still call you brother. And I do respect anyone who has studied and come to a different conclusion that I. Unfortunately most Christians dont.

I do take exception to some things you said.

Quote:
With such stringent instruction given to the Catholic translators of the KJV by the Roman Catholic clergy and Catholic King James



When you make a statement such as this, I have to wonder how thoroughly you have really studied this topic.

King James, tho certainly not a perfect man, was no Roman Catholic. The Cathoic Church was certainly [b]NOT[/b] in favor of the KJV work being done. 80% of the KJV is based on Tyndale's work, and the RCC had him murdered 75 years earlier.

Here are direct quotes from King James' own writings:

Quote #1
[i]"As for Purgatory and all the trash depending thereupon, it is not worth the talking of; Bellarmaine [Romanist Cardinal] cannot find any ground for it in all the Scriptures...But as for me I am sure there is a Heaven and a Hell...for the elect and reprobate...Heaven and Hell are there revealed to be the eternal home of all mankind, let us endeavor to win the one and eschew the other."[/i]

Quote #2 (Concerning the infallibility of the Pope)
[i]"...so I utterly deny that there is an earthly monarch thereof, whose word must be a Law, and who cannot err in his Sentence, by an infallibility of Spirit...Christ did not promise before his ascension to leave Peter with them to direct and instruct them in all thins; but he promised to send the Holy Ghost unto them for that end...But how they are now come to be Christs Vicars, nay, Gods on earth, triple crowned, Kings of heaven, earth and hell, judges of all the world, and none to judge them; heads of the faith, absolute deciders of all controversies by the infallibility of their spirit, having all power both spiritual and temporal in their hands; the high bishops, monarchs of the whole earth, superiors to all emperors and kings; yea supreme vice-gods, who whether will or not cannot err; how they now come is say to the top of greatness I know not but sure I am we that are kings have greatest need to look into it. As for me, Paul and Peter I know, but these men I know not...but I am sure none will condemn for an heretic save such as make the Pope their God, and think him such a speaking Scripture as they can define heresy no otherwise...Rome shall be the seat of the Antichrist--Rome is the Seat of the Antichrist."[/i]

Quote #3
[i]"And first for the blessed virgin Mary, I yield her that which the Angel Gabriel pronounced of her...I reverence her as the Mother of Christ,...But I dare not mock her and blaspheme God, praying her to command and control her Son, who is her God and her Savior, nor yet not I think that she hath no other thing to do in heaven, than to hear every idle mans suite, and busy herself in their errands; while requesting, while commanding her Son, while coming down to kiss and make love with Priests, and while disputing and brawling with Devils. In heaven she is in eternal glory and joy, never to be interrupted with any worldly business, and there I leave her with her blessed Son our Savior and her in eternal felicity."[/i]

The RCC had this to say about King James:
[i]"King James is no Catholic, neither is he a Christian."[/i]

King James' response to that was: [i]"...not only having ever been brought up in that Religion which I presently profess...and so cannot be properly an heretic, by their own doctrine, since I never was of their Church."[/i] --King James, Basilicon Doron, p. 15

And of course he had this to say about the Pope:
[i]"I am sure none will condemn for an heretic save such as make the Pope their God."[/i] --King James, Basilicon Doron, p. 36

I conclude that King James was no Catholic. (Nor was he gay, which many try and say today. I can refute that as well.)

As for the translators... Erasmus merely passed on the Greek Text that was considered the traditional and received text. Even Westcott and Hort admitted this.

Also... [b]they were not Catholic[/b]. They were Anglican, and the Anglican Church of today is but a thin shadow of what it was 400 years ago. As for the Anglicans who worked on the KJV, they were merely editing the Tyndale Bible, and he was a separatist, Bible-believing Christian who was martyred for his faith. Further, in spite of their Anglicanism, the translators of the KJV did accept the Bible as the infallible Word of God.

Quote:
It can be quite dangerous to have a believe-me-or-you-are-believing-a-lie or I'm-right-and-you're-sadly-misguided type of attitude in this matter. Such an attitude is often viewed as prideful or arrogant by those who disagree.



I understand what you are saying. However, for me this is not an issue of pride. I am vey confident about my convictions and what I percieve the truth to be. My motivation is to encourage and point people in the direction of truth. If it is misunderstood as pride or a bad attitude... well, from experience I can tell you that no matter how you stand for truth, someone isnt going to like it.

Krispy

PS: Let me add that when we make statements such as "The Catholic King James" or the "Catholic Translators of the KJV"... we need to be very careful. The [b]facts[/b] are that they were not. Therefore, when we make false statements, even about people who have been dead for 4 centuries, we are bearing false witness. Whether intentional or not, we are lying about them. Also, there are those who claim that King James was gay. He was not. It's a lie. When that lie is spouted out in Bible version debates... it is gossip. It is lying. It is bearing false witness.

We need to know what we are talking about, or we run the risk of committing sin.

 2005/8/23 14:39
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4499


 Re:

Hi Krispy...!

Thanks for the reproof about my remarks concerning the translators or King James himself being "Catholic" in belief. It has been a little while since I read in this, but I was under the impression that he had "made peace" with the Roman Church. But you are correct in that he was indeed a rather spiritually-questionable man, and his conflict with the Puritans and other religious groups is well documented.

However, whether or not King James and the translators were indeed Anglican or Catholic is quite insignificant (some might argue that the Anglican Church was even more corrupt than the Roman Catholic Church because of the events concerning its conception) when considering what was [u]still[/u] quite strigent and questionable instructions concerning the translation itself by the major clergy. These instructions were included in the words of the translators themselves.

Quote:
"I understand what you are saying. However, for me this is not an issue of pride. I am vey confident about my convictions and what I percieve the truth to be. My motivation is to encourage and point people in the direction of truth. If it is misunderstood as pride or a bad attitude... well, from experience I can tell you that no matter how you stand for truth, someone isnt going to like it."

Krispy, I know that you are a very sincere man of God. But again, it appears that you are saying that [i][u]you[/u][/i] hold the truth in this matter, and thus, [i][u]you[/u][/i] are the one standing for truth. These very comments, no matter how sincere or misunderstood, still reflect an "I-am-right-and-everyone-else-is-wrong" type of attitude. Such attitudes can mistakenly be viewed as pompous or arrogantly self-righteous. We must be patient with those who disagree with us, with the hope of edifying one another in the Lord. Besides, if we are gently honest, we may actually learn something from one another.

There are those of us who have sincerely and intensely studied this issue (yes, even though I included the words about [i]catholicism[/i]) and still do not agree with [i]your opinion[/i] concerning this matter. Yes, facts are facts. But some of the facts that are provided through the "great translation debate" are from second-hand sources. We too believe that we are standing for truth on this issue, but we believe that all such issues are open for study and debate. A person must be allowed the room to make their own decision on this issue (or any issue of doctrine), instead of having it presented to them by a second-hand authority. This is so contrary to the intent of having a version of the Bible that is commonly understood -- rather than explained by other sources.

There are many of us on this board that have sincerely searched this issue and still disagree (or don't [i]fully[/i] agree) with all of the "evidence" that has been presented by the various [i]KJV-only[/i] arguments. No one has the authority to say that one group is entirely wrong in this matter. I believe that we should be careful to say, "It is my belief" or "my persuasion" concerning the issue, rather than exhibiting a "this is the truth -- believe it or else" or "if you [i]really[/i] studied, you would realize that I am right" type of attitude. The best thing to do is to present the facts (again, [u]not[/u] from second-hand sources), and be patient enough to allow others to come to form their own set of beliefs. In the end, they [i]may[/i] or [i]may not[/i] agree with you.

But that is still okay. There are alot of controversial issues that are discussed in these threads. Some may disagree on this subject, or on the subject of music, or "eternal security," or judgment, or spiritual gifts, or Bible prophecy, etc... The point is that no one is an [i]all-knowing[/i] authority on this board. Not everyone will agree on such issues. But that is still okay. We do not all have to agree on every matter -- just on the issues that bind us together as believers.

Let's humbly encourage one another in our search for truth!

:-)


_________________
Christopher

 2005/8/23 15:54Profile









 Re:

Quote:
But again, it appears that you are saying that you hold the truth in this matter, and thus, you are the one standing for truth. These very comments, no matter how sincere or misunderstood, still reflect an "I-am-right-and-everyone-else-is-wrong" type of attitude. Such attitudes can mistakenly be viewed as pompous or arrogantly self-righteous.



My dad's favorite saying when I was growing up was: You've got to stand for something, or you'll fall for anything. Notice in my response I used the word "perceive". This means that I acknowledge that there are those who disagree, and that I am not always right. I do believe very strongly on this issue, and I do feel it is one of the most important issues facing the church today. Before we can ever address any other issues, we must first know what the Bible is... and what it is not.

As I have already said, I respect you and others who have really studied the issue and for whatever reason have drawn different conclusions. Let each man be fully convinced in his own heart.

By the way, I'm well aware that King James was a religious persecutor. Especially toward the groups that would eventually evolve into baptists on down the time line. But King James had little to do with the actual work of the translation, other than autorizing it. He didnt even fund the work. So his personal beliefs and behaviors dont effect the KJV one way or the other...

Krispy

 2005/8/23 16:07
dougkristen
Member



Joined: 2004/1/28
Posts: 360


 Re:

I studied Biblical Greek in College and we translated the greek text and the KJV seemed to be the closest to what we translated it... BUT, our teacher said that the NASB was more close to the actual greek text...

Hmmm...

In Christ,
Doug Renz


_________________
a Jesus freak

 2005/8/23 16:09Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4499


 Re:

Hi dougkristen...!

That is very interesting. Which greek text was it that you were translating while in college? And since you have studied this in college, how many actual greek texts are available for research today?

Thanks for any help you can give on this matter!

:-)


_________________
Christopher

 2005/8/23 16:15Profile









 Re:

Quote:
I studied Biblical Greek in College and we translated the greek text and the KJV seemed to be the closest to what we translated it... BUT, our teacher said that the NASB was more close to the actual greek text...



I echo Chris' question... which text? Since the KJV and the NASB are based on completely different texts, this would be an important question.

Quote:
our teacher said that the NASB was more close to the actual greek text...



Do you know this as a fact, or did you take your instructor's word on it?

Krispy

 2005/8/23 16:35
beenblake
Member



Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re:

Dear Krispy,

Out of curiosity, how do you know which greek text is more authentic?

Blake


_________________
Blake Kidney

 2005/8/25 13:01Profile
beenblake
Member



Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re:

Dear Chris,

I agree with your post. It was beautifully written.

Yes, let us be humble. And the "us" certainly includes me. I need to be humbled every day just the same.

Blake


_________________
Blake Kidney

 2005/8/25 13:10Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Out of curiosity, how do you know which greek text is more authentic?



Thats not easily answered here in a single post. Thats why AGAIN I refer you to threads that have covered this topic extensively and are easily accessible to you.

Let me ask you... How do you know the RT isnt more authentic?

If you give it an honest study, and really research it... then I will be glad to share my own views on it. So far you've kinda demonstrated that you're here to stir things up more than anything else. You seem to have ignored the advise of several (including admins) that you go back and search thru the past threads.

I wonder if you are teachable. Are you teachable?

Krispy

P.S. To partially answer your question... there is something called "faith" that plays a part in all of this. You want hard facts and human reasoning. You seem to have a very humanstic bent to your theology. If it isnt something you can see or touch... you reject it.

 2005/8/25 13:19





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