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philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Jeff
very quickly and then I'm off to bed! What do you understand 'condemnation' to mean in these verses? This condemnation has evidently already 'resulted'. So what was it? What was the sentence that the judge passed?


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Ron Bailey

 2003/12/16 18:01Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re:

I'm sorry Ron,

I am a rookie in terms of reaching out pass my physical being. I pray you have a good night sleep. So maybe we can continue tomorrow.

The condemnation of man is the result of God removing the effect of His Holy Spirit in all men born of a woman. All men are without God's righteousness. Righteousness means "equity of character." Righteousness of God allows men to know His will.

As a child born of a woman, this baby has no direction unless God chooses to give the Holy Spirit as in the case of John the Baptist. This is a precept of election in terms of the calling to a special work.

The child grows in this world being polluted by the philosophies of men. He becomes a rational being driven by what he accepts as truth by his environment. This only further increases his depravity. There is a counter force which put man under His law. This law is revealed through the conscience that God gives to every man.

If man continues to rebel against the conscience, God at some point will give them over to the depravity of their own mind. Romans 1. With a seared conscience man is condemned forever.

The priestly order of Melchizedec imparts God's righteousness into those who cry out to God for His deliverance. In chapter 8 of Hebrew's we are given the purpose for which the order of Melchizedec exists. "For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices; wherefore IT IS OF NECESSITY THAT THIS MAN HAVE SOMETHING TO OFFER..." vs 4 Then the offering of the order of Melchizedec is identified in vs 10-12.
Jesus and the Father work through the Holy Spirit to reveal God's will for man. It is only when we learn of God's righteousness do we begin the restoration of our soul's.

In love
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2003/12/16 18:26Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Thanks Jeff,
Thanks I slept well.

I would still like you to define the specific 'condemnation' that the human race sustained as a result of Adam's sin. There is no doubt that Romans teaches the above fact. What I am trying to do is 'hear' the judge's sentence. So I ask again "what is the condemnation that passed into the human race?". What was the race 'sentenced' to?

To give you clue in my thinking, I don't think it is the same 'condemnation' referred to in John 3. The John 3 'condemnation' seems to be as a result of someone 'not believing in the name of the only begotten Son of God. People who will not come to the light because their deeds are evil. If it is true that they cannot believe in him of whom they have not heard [Rom 10:14] this would imply that the John 3 'condemnation' is upon those whose who have heard but refused to believe. People who have refused the light. That 'condemnation' seems to be that they 'perish', but what was the condemnation that came on the race as a result of Adam's sin? WKIP


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Ron Bailey

 2003/12/17 4:44Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re:

Good morning brother,

There is a seperation of condemnation. Thankyou for that insight. I will have to read the Scripture some more and meditate on your thoughts.

I just listened to Paris Reidhead, The Grace Of God That Brings Repentance. Much of what we are discussing here is spoken of in his sermon. Isn't wonderful how Jesus brings hearts together. Thankyou for sharpening me.

in Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2003/12/17 11:00Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Clutch wrote Re:
Hi Ron,
The Pharisees over here (with whom I associate), have built a doctrine around a couple of verses that would indicate that being responsible for our sin has nothing to do with knowledge:

Psalms 51:5 "5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Romans 5:12-15 "12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come."

I know you've done some of this on a similar thread regarding folks with mental handicaps. I too have to agree that some where in Gods Grace and Mercy that type situation is covered. I just can't point it out in the Bible.

Clutch
I've resurrected this theme, as I think it the best place to handle it. We might have started another one called 'Are the heathen lost?' but where we left this might be a good place to start.

I do believe strongly in what is usually called original sin; I prefer 'congenital' sin. Personally, I don't think the Psalm 51 reference has anything to do with it, but the Rom 5:12 is the locus classicus; the prime site for this doctrine.

Condemnation has passed to all men. [Rom 5:18] but the question is 'what was that condemnation?' Almost all bible students conclude that this is the same condemnation referred to in John 3:19, but I don't think it is. The word 'condemnation' has the sense of a judicial sentence, so what was Adam sentenced to (as a result of his unique sin) and consequently what condemnation has passed to us?

I think the condemnation is Death. Not physical death which is little more than absence of life, but Death which is the presence of a Tyrant on the throne [Rom 5:14], part of the consequence of Death is death, but they are not identical. (2 Corinthians 1:10 Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver us; - this is not referring to death but to Death.)

Death is an aggressive permeating condition which touches every part of our life. It spoils and pollutes all it touches; this is what I have in mind when I think of 'total depravity'. Not that everything is as bad as it can be, but that nothing has escaped its rule. However, and this may call down a feeding frenzy on my head, I don't read that this condemnation results in 'perishing'. In other words, I don't think we are hell-bound because of what Adam did; I think we are hell-bound because of what we did. Please feel free to challenge me on this.

This 'condemnation' is now. [Rom 1:18] It has already arrived. But I think there is another 'condemnation' coming. The coming condemnation is different; it is a sentence passed but not yet executed. It is the result of 'knowing and not doing'. John 3:18ff speaks of those who have not believed and are consequently 'condemnded'. This condemnation/sentence is that such 'condemned men' perish. These are they who do not come to the light because their deeds are evil.

I don't see these 'unbelievers' as those who have not heard, but those who have been faced up with the Son, and who have not believed. [John 3:18] Those who have not 'obeyed the truth'.(see later)

In Rom 2:5ff speaks of the coming judgment of God, and of those who according to their hardness and impenitent heart treasure up unto themselves wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God. This is clearly a future judgment.

Paul then shows how God will make his judgments. to them, who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life. There is a promise of future eternal life here for some.

But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish. There is promise here of future judgment for some. This group, notice, have known but not done; they have known but not obeyed the truth. This condemnation is not because of what Adam did but because of what they have done (or not, as the case may be)

Later on Paul indicates the process in Rom 10:12-17. There can be no faith without the word of God. If God has not spoken men cannot obey nor believe. Will He hold them responsible for not doing what He did not tell them?

There are obvious questions which arise from this, but I will let you or others ask them.


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Ron Bailey

 2004/2/9 5:33Profile
Clutch
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Joined: 2003/11/10
Posts: 202
Oak Ridge, Tennessee

 Re:

Ron said:
"However, and this may call down a feeding frenzy on my head,..."

Yes, I can see that it's already begun around the outside top!

Ron, If you hear a knock, don't answer the door! :-D

I find your views on " congenital" sin interesting, and I'd like to believe it that way. However, at this point my spirit man is unconvinced. Let me re-read what you've said, and let the Holy Spirit work in me about this.

I just got done reading the previous posts on this thread. Once again, "It's a fine kettle of fish you've gotten us into this time Ollie." I was surprised to see that bro. Jake is a vegetarian.
Holy Cow! I thought he was a methodist.
Clutch :-P


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Howard McNeill

 2004/2/9 6:38Profile
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Quote:
Death is an aggressive permeating condition which touches every part of our life. It spoils and pollutes all it touches; this is what I have in mind when I think of 'total depravity'. Not that everything is as bad as it can be, but that nothing has escaped its rule. However, and this may call down a feeding frenzy on my head, I don't read that this condemnation results in 'perishing'. In other words, I don't think we are hell-bound because of what Adam did; I think we are hell-bound because of what we did. Please feel free to challenge me on this.



Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Quote:
I think we are hell-bound because of what we did.



Yes. I believe this wholeheartedly. Somewhere in all this something smacks of 'choice'.
If anyone of us would have been in the originators of our kind's shoes [i]without[/i] the knowledge we now have, what choice would we have made, at '[i]The Suggestion[/i]'?

Being that they accepted to partake of that 'knowledge' which has been passed on to us, are we not even worse off in a sense?
Since the remedy is provided...[i]but we love darkness more than light[/i]?


As with the Cross. [i]WE[/i] put Him there. [i]WE[/i] are responsible. Which is what makes anti-semitism so bizarre to me in this regard.
When your 'system' gets challenged, when the cops come busting in with their searchlight, the cockroaches scatter, the arrogant revolt and resist arrest and the humble plead for mercy.

It's not Adam and Eve and the Jews and the Roman soldiers and Hitler and....[i]there is NONE righteous[/i].
It's [i]US[/i], all inclusive.

Back to the Romans verse. Somewhere in this dusty, disorginized file system of a brain I recall hearing about...wait, found it;

Ver 24; Re; 'body of death'

"Tradition says that an ancient tribe near Tarsus tied the corpse of a murder victim to it's murdrer, allowing its spreading decay to slowly infect and execute the murdrer - perhaps that is the image Paul has in mind."

From The MacArthur Study Bible

Thankfully, as Mr. Ravenhill put's it, "there is verse 25"

Hope I didn't muddy the waters here, feel free to turn the hose on me.


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Mike Balog

 2004/2/9 7:09Profile
Clutch
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Joined: 2003/11/10
Posts: 202
Oak Ridge, Tennessee

 Re:

Hi Mike,
I think that the major point of contention here is not about those who have heard the gospel and either accepted or rejected it. But, about those who because of circumstances beyond their control, have not been given the opportunity to hear and respond. Some of the basic issues are:
1."What is THEIR responsibility before God?"
2." Are they accountable to God for what they haven't been given opportunity to receive?"
3."Are there varying degrees of accountability in regard to eternal salvation/damnation?"

I believe that we are either in Adam, or in Christ.Those in Adam go to where the boogerman lives when they die, and those in Christ go to be with the Lord Jesus when they die ( physically). I just haven't found in scripture clear and convincing evidence of the special dispensations of Grace; that may be there, hidden to me. I reserve the right to be wrong, and I will repent and change when I've erred; I've done it before.
However,in the mean time,I do know this:

"2 ¶ It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter." Proverbs 25:2

Clutch :-)


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Howard McNeill

 2004/2/9 7:31Profile
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Joined: 2003/9/30
Posts: 386
Toronto, Ontario, Canada

 Tough Questions

Another emotional form of the question is, [i]"Does God condemn those who die in infancy to hell?"[/i]

Confronted with questions like this, my usual answer is, "I don't know, because the scripture does not directly address this, but I'm sure that the God of righteousness will have the most just way of dealing with them."

Thus far, in my study of the scripture, I could not find a certain and definite answer.



Philologos:

Your distinction between "congenital sin" and "congenital guilt" would have resolved the problem by accepting the former and not the latter. From this point of view, infants who died would be congenitally sinful but not condemned to eternal perdition since they are not guilty congenitally.

This argument is rather appealing, however, I'm not sure if the apostle Paul really had such a distinction in mind when he wrote:

[i]So then as [b]through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men,[/b] even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. (Romans 5:18)[/i]

On this key text, your approach is to further distinguish between "condemnation to death (a present condition of sin)" and "condemnation to perdition (a future judgment)". The condemnation in Romans 5:18 would fall into the former category according to this thought, and is therefore not related to our future destiny in hell or in heaven.

All this sound very good, except I am not certain whether that is what Paul really had in mind when he wrote the Epistle to the Romans. The distinctions made do not seem that clearly cut in my own reading.

Millard Erickson used a different approach in [i]Christian Theology[/i]:

[i]We all were involved in Adam's sin, and thus receive both the corrupted nature that was his after the fall, and the guilt and condemnation that attach to his sin. With this matter of guilt, however, just as with the imputation of Christ's righteousness, there must be some conscious and voluntary decision on our part. Until this is the case, there is only a conditional imputation of guilt. Thus, there is no condemnation until one reached the age of responsibility. If a child dies before becoming capable of making genuine moral decisions, the contingent imputation of Adamic sin does not become actual, and the child will experience the same type of future existence with the Lord as will those who have reached the age of moral responsibility and had their sins forgiven as a result of accepting the offer of salvation based upon Christ's atoning death. The problem of the corrupted nature of such persons is presumably dealt with in the way that the imperfectly sanctified nature of believers will be glorified."[/i]

Erickson's argument is based upon the concept of "the age of accountability." The biblical basis: Deuteronomy 1:39; Isaiah 7:15-16; Jonah 4:11.

So Erickson would agree with you that infants who died before they have a moral consciousness will not go to hell.

However, on the question of those who had not heard the gospel before but are beyond the "age of accountability", Erickson would disagree with you. He wrote, [i]"We become responsible and guilty when we accept or approve of our corrupt nature... if we acquiesce in that sinful nature, we are in effect saying that it is good. By placing our tacit approval upon the corruption, we are also approving or concurring in the action in the Garden of Eden so long ago. We become guilty of that sin without having committed any sin of our own."[/i]

Erickson's arguments are interesting, however, not convincing enough for me to fully embrace it.

After studying various arguments on the issue of original study, to date, I can only say the same thing in answer to the question of original sin: "I don't know, but I trust God will deal with every problem justly."





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Sam

 2004/2/9 9:23Profile
Clutch
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Joined: 2003/11/10
Posts: 202
Oak Ridge, Tennessee

 Re: Tough Questions

Ron's and Secret Agent persons,
I read the scripture that 001 offered about the age of accountability doctrine. I won't go there except to say unless there's more scriptural backup, it's pretty weak, and I think a stretch ,(but I like it).

Could it be that we cannot apply the same level of accountability to a baby than to a capabale thinking adult that has never heard the gospel.

Romans1
19 ¶ Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Rommans 2
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

I submit we are responsible for what we don't know. It could be a generational thing that I have no personal knowledge of, but this is MY watch, and I'M responsible.

IITimothy2:15
15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Clutch :-)


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Howard McNeill

 2004/2/9 11:23Profile





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