Ex-England colony of Australia
| A New Thing.|
Is a "new thing" needed for todays church or is the word of God all we need ? I have a problem with the expression new thing in that it implies, to me at least, that the the word in the Bible is not enough in todays christian church/congregation.
Are we as christians becoming more and more like the Athenians as below and not like the Bereans in the same book, ie accepting any proposal from a "respectable" source ?
Act 17:21 (Now all the Athenians and the strangers sojourning there spent their time in nothing else, but either to tell or to hear some new thing.)
I base my perspective on the below against a new thing,
Isa 55:10 For as the rain cometh down and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, and giveth seed to the sower and bread to the eater;
Isa 55:11 so shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
Lam 3:24 Jehovah is my portion, saith my soul; therefore will I hope in him.
1Jo 2:7 Beloved, no new commandment write I unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning: the old commandment is the word which ye heard.
If we as some say, need a new thing, what would it be based on and why (and there are plenty of examples in christian circles) ?
What is the "new thing" ?
How do we discern this new thing if it's the real thing or a "pepsi" if you'll excuse my expression ?
Last but not least, can somebody point it out to me from the word of God ?
Jer 18:14 Shall the snow of Lebanon fail from the rock of the field? or shall the cold waters that flow down from afar be dried up?
Jer 18:15 For my people have forgotten me, they have burned incense to false gods; and they have been made to stumble in their ways, in the ancient paths, to walk in bypaths, in a way not cast up;
Jer 18:16 to make their land an astonishment, and a perpetual hissing; every one that passeth thereby shall be astonished, and shake his head.
Act 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
| 2003/11/1 23:32||Profile|
| Re: A New Thing.|
I sit down reluctantly to write this morning because the issue at hand will stir some opposition and fire, some harsh wordings, some revelation as to the true state of mens hearts.
One or two segments of Isaiah are used to lay the foundation for what is called a Third Wave, a Transformation and a Reformation of modern Christianity. This New Thing-ism is in one sense called for as we look at what liberal theology has caused within many areas of Christian thought and conduct. Tozer and friends has made this point perfectly clear we are in close range of a brilliant source as to analysis of the present condition.
I sit down to write because it has to be regarded as an absolute necessity to establish a firm statement against the efforts to rewrite theology and to give vanity and prosperity the upper hand in the Church. In other threads I have begun to bring some defining words regarding the prophetic realm and the return to a spirituality which will bring a spontaneous and inevitable reflection of Jesus Christ.
The new thing from Gods perspective is always and exclusively the Son, Jesus Christ, the eternal substance which is newness of life in Christ, the presence of the Father in vocational fellowship with his people. This is what we all are looking for and pursuing.
Shortcuts which are supposed to bring us to this goal are presented in terms of a new prophetic interpretation of theology, of leadership concepts, of ways of doing church, of worship.
What we are presented with is a something which looks good and prosperous but in which there is no cross at the foundation. They have done away with the cross, said Tozer.
Enthusiasm has taken the place of worship. Submission to man has reduced true obedience to nought. Flakiness and amusement stirs the flesh to produce a sublime emotional climate which is said to belong to the heavenly realm.
What we have at the root of this transformation are the concepts which were brought forth in the late 1940s called the Latter Rain movement. We have been presented with a list of the main points in another thread. (Please, lift it to the front to be looked at once more.)
The new breed of leadership take the manifested sons of God-words of the letter of Romans to the extreme and demand adherence of a dimension which reminds far too much of the Catholic structure.
I have had the opportunity to watch the development of C. P. Wagners efforts very closely he brought forth my work as an example to copy into one of his books on prayer warfare at an early stage of his departure into a twisted interpretation of what we can do to take out principalities and powers by prayer.
The new thing invites the modern personality, the optimised itching ear, to get repeated satisfaction through vanity and prosperity prophets. As we have been thoroughly searching through this flood of words, one quite soon comes to the conclusion that God must suffer from MPD, (multiple personality disease), not knowing what he says in one place, contradicting himself in the next, or that these men and women who belong to this new breed of leadership do not know about words like veracity and truth.
As I and an international team confronted a couple of the front men in this realm regarding truthfulness and also regarding involvement in fraternities belonging to the enemy camp, we were told that God had sent them and that they therefore were set apart from men which meant that we were not allowed to correct them. If we tried to, some terrible things would immediately happen. We survived, but their falsehood targets even wider circles of Christianity. Articles from that confrontation are available.
These fellows demand an openness of the Berean kind. They search for the spirit of adoption among their people. What they are after is a spirit of adaption, of adaptability, of gullibility. They do not allow for the gift of discernment or the investigative mind. They handle truth lightly. This has its root in a disrespect of the Word of God.
A true prophet brings the people back to the Word. Tozers, Ravenhills and others analysis is indeed to the target, even more so today. Thorough research displaying roots and history as well as spiritual results has been done by many good men and women. Some of the best can easily be accessed by browsing the web of course the subscribers to the new thing-ism will not agree.
If you are into debating, this is an area in which you will have a tough fight. I recommend a turning away from the New, a turning to the Real, a turning to Christ.
Bless you all,
| 2003/11/2 3:34||Profile|
Santa Clara, CA
Bless you Lars.
For your willingness to share your experience and your heart. More and more it becomes obvious that you have spent much time in the school of the heart of our Lord. I am so blessed that you have offered up your services to the body. I feel as if I sit at the feet of a type of Gamaliel (..[i]held in respect by all the people..Acts 5:33[/i])
This is no vain flattery, you send me diving into the scriptures. I have so much to learn.
I hesitate to jump into this, with my limited knowledge of all the issues at hand. But having been singed by some aspects of this and burned by other earlier ignorance of much of the modern day false gospel....
This vese keeps coming to mind:
Thus says the Lord:
"Stand in the ways and see,
And ask for the old paths, where the good way is,
And walk in it;
Then you will find rest for your souls.
But they said, 'We will not walk in it.
To ape Philologo's (and I believe correct) assumption, that a true outpouring/revival/...better yet here is the quote I was looking for:
I have long had a suspicion that revivals may well be a sovereign manifestation of genuine regeneration and that what we call outpourings are really just normal Christianity. The problem is that we have lived most of our lives in sub-standard Christianity and IT has become the norm.
It seems that the straying from the original emphesis of Christian faith is, in many ways so vast that a return to the "old path's" now would be so unfamiliar that we would be saying, "Look at the [b]new[/b] thing the Lord is doing"
| 2003/11/2 11:28||Profile|
I only planned on having a friendly debate with one person. It's kind of hard to respond to more than that. I also was thinking we were going to discuss one specific teaching. But this topic is broad. But let's see what happens.
I think we agree more than we think. I think what is being called "new" is really a return to the old. To the way GOd wants it to be and the way it began. At some point man tried to take control and horrible things happened. THe church became institutional and was taken into the dark times. During that time lots of tradition developed.
The Reformation started to bring things back to how they are best, how GOd wants it. Since that time there has been a struggle to continue to break off tradtion that is not of God that the church may be restored to how God wants it.
A good example of this that I think we might all agree on is the house church movement. Though some may take it too far in certain ways, the idea is a very positive break with tradition. You don't have to be part of an institution. It's ok if you are and can be good, but it's not necessary. Isn't it startling how long this institutional stuff went on when it couldn't hold up in the Bible? But people were blind through tradition and bias.
SOme of the things that are happening are just challenging more tradition and exposing bias'. I think it's wrong to say, "if i can't find it in the Bible it's wrong." Ok, where does the Bible say [i]that[/i]? Of course it doesn't... that's just another tradition. An opinion being expressed as absolute truth.
I think it is correct to say "If it is clearly in contradiction to the Bible, then it is wrong." Do you agree?
I will wait and see what you think about the above before moving on.
| 2003/11/2 21:26||Profile|
| Re: A New Thing.|
When fleshly ambitions and fleshly aspirations get the upper hand in any situation we find Gods intention contradicted and the Word of God violated.
Christian faith is not so much about the vindication and the restoration of man as it is a vindication of God and a return to the eternal purpose of God.
The Word only supports what is of Christ behaviour, morals and thinking aligned to Heavenly measure.
This is a fundamental issue where a prophet of God comes to a very different conclusion regarding the new thing-ism compared to what the vanity prophet holds and stands for.
The way things are done and displayed do not carry resemblance to what Christ is like, therefore it is not in the Good Book. God had his final word in Christ.
| 2003/11/3 2:19||Profile|
Ex-England colony of Australia
| Re: Re|
I am a friendly person and like everybody else have opinions and they might not agree with yours or yours might not agree with mine but then we'll agree to disagree.
What bothers me with the "new" that is returning us to the old is that is all new doing that or is it just parts of it. My belief is as I've explained that the way has already been given as to how we should walk our life as God's own.
Joh 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence
Joh 17:6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
Jesus had made known his character, his law, his will, his plan of mercy - or, in other words, he had revealed God to them why should it be any different today, He is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end.
Whatever the Bible declares, the Bible itself
(not some outside authority) must interpret maybe that is what you meant by coming back to the old todd. But do we really need something new to bring us there ?
Deu 8:3 And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every [word] that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live.
Mat 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
Luk 4:4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.
Psa 1:2 But his delight [is] in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.
Luk 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
Scriptures are understandable to you and me and we are also personally accountable.
Acts 17.11 speaks about the Bereans who although they heard it from Paul still did check it out and not just blindly believed in it and they were commended for it.
The word was given to all who will receive it, intended for all to understand then as it is today.
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.
To be able to act accordingly you are to be indwelt and empowered by the Holy Spirit.
Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Joh 14:17 [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
That as far as I can see means the truth and noting but the truth.
David Wilkerson has spoken a good sermon on the vine and the branches but I can't find it at the moment maybe somebody can help.
Joh 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
For without me you can do nothing!!!
2Pe 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that [pertain] unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
..unto life and godliness,...
2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
Jer 15:16 Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts.
The more I read these words the more I rejoice in them.
Satans goal is to make us into our own small gods where pride will make us fall into his traps thus becoming a perverted Christian and a perverted Christianity is his ultimate weapon.
There are plenty of examples of gods in the new teachings that are swarming all over.
2Ti 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2Ti 3:2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
2Ti 3:3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
2Ti 3:4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
All of God's word is 100% accurate without error, all truth is in God's word, knowing is to obey the authority of God's word.
Joh 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, [then] are ye my disciples indeed;
Joh 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
I think it's wrong to say, "if i can't find it in the Bible it's wrong." Ok, where does the Bible say that? Of course it doesn't... that's just another tradition. An opinion being expressed as absolute truth.
Where else would I go then to know the truth ? These verses do spell out to me that all I need is in Christ our precious Lord and I can find it in His word.
This probably isn't coherent, trying to put different ideas together, reading here and there, mostly The Berean CD articles, using e-sword for Bible verses, playing soccer with the kids and doing other stuff in between, such is family life. What I want to bring forward is pretty much said in lwpray's message but hopefully this isn't too boring to read. No more long replies.
| 2003/11/3 6:15||Profile|