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educationmat
Member



Joined: 2005/8/12
Posts: 5


 Hello

Hello All!
I was lucky enough to stumble upon this little jewel...I love the diversity of beliefs, the fact that two Christians can claim the same belief and disagree on fundamental elements...the fact that the only way that we grow is through each other. It's amazing.

On a separate matter...I have a friend that loves God and is doing every possible thing to please God. However, I believe that he may have been led astray. I would love to talk to someone who has had experience with the fanatical elements. In need of much help and am reaching out...

 2005/8/12 23:46Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4499


 Re: Hello

Hi educationmat...!

Welcome to the website! There are some wonderful sources here -- especially the audio messages that are available for download.

I've been involved with some friends from a very wide array of beliefs -- including some odd fanaticism. Perhaps if you gave a description of your friend's experiences, others might be able to help.

:-)


_________________
Christopher

 2005/8/12 23:57Profile
educationmat
Member



Joined: 2005/8/12
Posts: 5


 Re:

Well, he was such a great guy...actually normal, married with three kids. I don't know what happened. All of the sudden, he said that he wouldn't speak to any one that had a 401k. He took his kids away from his parents (who had a 401k, but not much else) secluded himself from the rest of society (of course, this is after being fired from a plethora of jobs). He withdrew his children from school, he won't speak to ANYONE in his family that has a 401(k).
He quotes incidents as though they were real, but they're fictional. I don't know what to do. We love him so much. He says that it's in the name of Christ, but I don't think that Christ would do some of the things that he has done. Please help me understand what's going on.

 2005/8/13 0:19Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4499


 Re:

Hi educationmat...

Wow...that is quite odd.

Have you asked him [i]why[/i] he feels so strongly about 401Ks?

You may want to point out to him that the Bible exhorts us to take care of our loved ones. In fact, someone that doesn't take care of his family (according to the Scriptures) is "worse than an infidel" (I Timothy 5:8). Even Jesus took care of his mother. As he was dying on the cross, he made certain that someone would look after his mother (John 19:25-27). A retirement plan (such as a 401k) allows a person to be financially stable after a regular income is no longer available.

However, this situation sounds somewhat delusional, or quite possibly, spiritual. There are many Christians that tend to consider all mental problems as a result of demonic activity (like posession, etc...). However, there are medical conditions (like imbalances, tumors, etc...) that do affect the mental aptitude in people. Depression used to be considered "taboo" by many churches. However, many people have realized that there are medical conditions that effect portions of the brain dealing with our outlook and problem solving ability.

***EDIT***
A professor that I know was a pastor for several years. He quit his position in order to take care of his wife, who was suffering from a clot (or some other type of obstruction) in her brain. The doctors performed an operation, and they said that it would add another 10 years to her life. That was eight or nine years ago, and she is still doing well. This professor told me that before the surgery, his wife suffered from some strange behavior. She became angry at her loved ones (including her husband and children), even saying things that you know that she did not really mean. She experienced some other very peculiar behaviors as well. The doctors explained that such delusions were to be expected as a result of her condition. I am not saying that your friend is suffering from the same condition, but there could be a medical issue involved.

You may consider speaking openly with your friend about your concerns. If that doesn't work, you may want to speak to some of his other loved ones.

I will be praying with you for this person.

:-)


_________________
Christopher

 2005/8/13 0:44Profile
educationmat
Member



Joined: 2005/8/12
Posts: 5


 Re:

I know that he was heavily into drugs when he was younger. Do you think that that may have something to do with this? I just want to help him (he won't even let his children wear any new clothes, only used, they have no medical insurance because he thinks that having insurance means that he's putting his faith in the "world" and not in God). I have medical insurance for my kids...does this mean that I'm not a Christian? I don't believe so. I just want to take care of my family, protect and provide. Do I have to live in poverty and rags in order to be a Christian? He quotes old ministers, from the 1800's. How do I rebuke that?
ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
Hi educationmat...

Wow...that is quite odd.

Have you asked him [i]why[/i] he feels so strongly about 401Ks?

You may want to point out to him that the Bible exhorts us to take care of our loved ones. In fact, someone that doesn't take care of his family (according to the Scriptures) is "worse than an infidel" (I Timothy 5:8). Even Jesus took care of his mother. As he was dying on the cross, he made certain that someone would look after his mother (John 19:25-27). A retirement plan (such as a 401k) allows a person to be financially stable after a regular income is no longer available.

However, this situation sounds somewhat delusional, or quite possibly, spiritual. There are many Christians that tend to consider all mental problems as a result of demonic activity (like posession, etc...). However, there are medical conditions (like imbalances, tumors, etc...) that do affect the mental aptitude in people. Depression used to be considered "taboo" by many churches. However, many people have realized that there are medical conditions that effect portions of the brain dealing with our outlook and problem solving ability.

You may consider speaking openly with your friend about your concerns. If that doesn't work, you may want to speak to some of his other loved ones.

I will be praying with you for this person.

:-)


 2005/8/13 1:03Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4499


 Re:

Hi educationmat...

I made an edit of my last post in order to include an anecdote concerning the experience of a Christian professor teaching at the university that I attend.

Yes, it is quite possible that his drug use could play a role in his condition. There is someone that I know who did heavy drugs many years ago, and still faces lasting effects. But I am not a doctor, and such diagnosis should be left to someone more knowledgable that I.

I do not see anything wrong with medical insurance. In fact, in a nation where the cost of medical care is so high, a person almost [i]needs[/i] such insurance. It does not display a [i]lack of faith[/i]. On the contrary, it shows wisdom in using the present condition of this age. In Paul's day, he used the Roman governmental system to "appeal unto Caesar" (Acts 25).

And concerning the use of money or wealth in this present society, there are extremes to every situation. There are those who claim that God desires for us to be wealthy, and there are those who claim that God desires for us to be poor. It may do well to remember the words of Proverbs 30:8 - "[i]...give me neither poverty nor riches; feed me with food convenient for me[/i]." The secret of proper Christian living is with contentment. We should be content with what God has given us. Like I said before, God expects us to take care of our family. Medical insurance is a way of taking care of those needs. Even those who believe that God will give them "supernatural health" need to have insurance. Why? Because many jobs (and of course, schools) require physicals, shots, and regular checkups. And most couples hope to have children. Such costs would be too expensive for those without insurance.

Here are a few verses concerning contentment and financial instruction from the Bible:

Philippians 4:11-12
I Timothy 6:6-8
Hebrews 13:5
Luke 3:14
Matthew 6:33
3 John 1:2

I hope this helps. After a while, you may want to check back and find some remarks by others that frequent this website. I imagine that they may offer some wisdom, and of course, stand in agreement with your prayers.

:-)


_________________
Christopher

 2005/8/13 1:37Profile
Christisking
Member



Joined: 2005/7/20
Posts: 672
Los Angeles, California

 Re:

You friend may have a point about modern American Christians building up earthly treasures during our life here as strangers in a strange land. Please consider the words and teachings of John Wesley.

“From that express declaration of our Lord, "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of heaven," we may easily learn, that none can have riches without being greatly endangered by them. But if the danger of barely having them is so great, how much greater is the danger of increasing them!” John Wesley

“Must we not, Thirdly, rank among those that desire to be rich, all that, in fact "lay up treasures on earth?" a thing as expressly and clearly forbidden by our Lord as either adultery or murder...When it is calmly and deliberately done, it is a clear proof of our desiring to be rich. And thus to lay up money is no more consistent with good conscience, than to throw it into the sea.” John Wesley

To focus on 401k’s alone as a obsession is ludicrous, although it is one of many ways most American Christians put their trust in their money to take care of them, instead of putting their trust in God to take care of them.

Now if a person (for sake of argument) was to live in a luxury lake front home in a affluent upscale community, and have luxury automobiles, and jewels, and substantial savings, 401k, IRA, and do nothing Christian but claim an easy believism in Jesus as Savior but not Lord and Master, your friend may have a very valid point. This is sadly the condition of many American Christians today. How many modern western believers will show up on the day of judgment and find out that the treasure they built up here on earth won’t squeeze through the eye of a needle? Countless millions, at least!

If you friend is obsessed with 401k’s for some reason you may want to help him expand his view.

You may also want to consider that God is concerned with our needs not new clothes, luxuries and comforts. This reminds of a quote by Leonard Ravenhill.

“God doesn’t care a hill of beans if Americans have to wait in bread lines in order to eat - and God doesn't care if ever automobile in America rust to the ground because there is no gas to run them - and this could happen any day now!” Leonard Ravenhill.

Also, concerning the issue of health insurance --- although affordable health insurance is a major issue in America today, their are certain alternatives. I understand that their are literally millions who have to go without medical insurance because of the sick political and mammon hungry condition our nation and for those in that circumstance I have faith and stand on the promises of God that he will provide for the needs of His servants. To refuse medical insure for your family based on some fanatical beliefs is just not Biblical, but I understand the plight of those who can’t afford the ridiculous cost of medical insurance. There are many who are in low paying menial jobs who have no choice - and I assure you if they trust in the promises of God their needs will be met.

I have personal experience in this matter. I run a non-profit organization where the majority of the money generated is poured out for others in need. (the least of these list by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ) There was a time when my family went without insurance because it would have meant one of the 17 people who rely on the help of our organization for their daily food, and\or the many children (poor and retarded) who rely on our organization having to be turned away from the loving arms of Jesus. I could not tell these people “sorry you and your children have to go without food today because I need to spend the organizations money on the ridiculous cost of medical insurance for my own family.” I put my trust in God and for that short period of time my family was in perfect heath. The Lord, praise God, provided and now I have the best medical insurance money can buy at absolutely no cost to myself or the organization I run. God truly provides for those who put their trust in Him and their efforts for His Kingdom.

My family often chooses to sacrifice many of the modern convinces and luxuries and comforts of modern American life so that we can pour the love of Jesus out on a lost and dieing world who is headed down the wide path to the eternal flames of Hell. (the organization generates more money then we have ever made in our entire lives, but we keep less for ourselves then we ever have in our entire lives for the sake of others) Remember we are supposed to esteem others greater then ourselves. We all happily and joyfully sacrifice much so that other may be saved and experience the undying love of Christ. And, believe it or not we are condemned for doing so. Even worse we are condemned for doing so by many “so called” Christians and even our own parents. But we take joy in our condemnation considering the words of Jesus in the sermon on the mount (Matt. 6) and the sermon on the plain (Luke 6) as comfort and edification.

If you are talking about a sick and twisted person who is obsessed with 401k’s and lack medical insurance, I will earnestly pray and fast for the friend of which you speak. If you are talking about my family and the nonprofit organization which we run as humble and faithful servant of Christ - I say to you my friend with the love and kindness of a brother trying to show another brother the errors of his ways - you my friend are a sick and twisted person - how dare you try to defile and lie about a humble and contrite servant of Jesus Christ.

Please clarify your post and state if I am the person of whom you speak. (my name is Patrick Ersig and I live in the Detroit, Michigan area - the organization that I run is called S&L (salt and light) Ministries to help teach the low income, fatherless, homeless, retarded childeren in the Detroit area about Jesus, and for finacial support for the native missionaries, and the persicuted church, and persicuted pastors and their families around the world) I will happily defend the lifestyle of a servant of Jesus Christ on this forum! :-x


_________________
Patrick Ersig

 2005/8/13 3:18Profile
educationmat
Member



Joined: 2005/8/12
Posts: 5


 Re:

Dear Patrick,
I am must touched by your words. (especially that welcoming snarly face!) I'm not sure what has aggrieved you so. I will pass the wise advice onto my dear friend. Thanks for your input, I'm glad that you're living the life that you want. Surely, you wouldn't even take a charity handout at Christmas would you? That's honorable, to stand by your words as you do. I don't even know you, and yet I admire you so much.
PS. I think that you should register the name of your non-profit organization, as it's not listed with the State of Michigan as such.

 2005/8/13 3:42Profile
Christisking
Member



Joined: 2005/7/20
Posts: 672
Los Angeles, California

 Re:

Quote:

"I'm not sure what has aggrieved you so."

The PM messages you have sent me that are filled with hatred and false accusations is what has aggrieved me so.

"I'm glad that you're living the life that you want."

I am living a life according to the teachings of Jesus. This is the life that every Christian is supposed to be living. Remember, Jesus said to deny yourself, take up your cross and follow me. Jesus continued to says that if you did not do this you could not be one of His followers. Saying "I'm a Christian" and attending a church service here and there is not enough according to the teachings of Jesus.

Quote:

"Surely, you wouldn't even take a charity handout at Christmas would you?"

Our organization absolutely accepts charity at Christmas. Last year we were blessed to be able to help a homeless family with such donations. We will solicit gift for the homeless again this year.

Quote:

"I don't even know you, and yet I admire you so much."

In your PM messages you state clearly that you know me and have meet me, but refuse to say who you are and hide behind a screen name slinging false accusations and bitter hatred. As I have stated I feel this is extremely cowardly.

Quote:

"I think that you should register the name of your non-profit organization, as it's not listed with the State of Michigan as such."

S and L Ministries is registered and listed with the state of Michigan and the IRS. I can supply you with our licensed number and tax ID code.

I am greatly concerned with the hatred, bitterness and anger you spew in your PM's. I have given you all of my contact information and urge you come out from hiding behind your screen name. I would really like to able to help you, or at least defend myself from the false accusation and hatred you have for me.




_________________
Patrick Ersig

 2005/8/13 13:32Profile
jeremyhulsey
Member



Joined: 2003/4/18
Posts: 777


 Re:

This thread is locked.


_________________
Jeremy Hulsey

 2005/8/13 22:55Profile





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