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crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Hi Todd,

In resonse to the questions you raised :

Quote:
... but I think you'll agree with me that there's many legitimate Christians out there that are not so up front in their approach. Not that they're hiding something or intentionally being dishonest, it just seems unnecessary and even awkward to present things in that manner in most situations. Now if they ask you a direct question and you lie, then that's obviously dishonest.

Quote:
Would you be dishonest if you didn't come right out in the beginning of your sermon and declare "In this sermon I am going to teach you some charasmatic teachings" (or something to that effect)?



I would like to think that if you are the Pastor of a church and are going to either invite someone in to speak or supply the use of your facilities that the onus would be on you (the Pastor) to check out their credentials, find out there beliefs and ask the tough questions even if they are awkward. Is it not that Pastor's responsibilty to be the Sheperd of his flock and I might add, to be aware of deviating doctrines?
That's not to say that some may not be forthcoming about what they intend to do as may be the case mentioned here in this thread.
With the amount of bad theology around I would think that you couldn't be careful enough.
Just my two cents.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2003/10/31 22:23Profile
Everlast
Member



Joined: 2003/10/16
Posts: 63
Missouri

 Re:

I agree with crsschk that it should be the pastors responsibility to check things out, however, if the group has a front, if you will, that checks out as being legitimate then that can present a problem. They came in as a Missouri Prayer conference (The United States Strategic Prayer Network 50 State Tour, to be more exact; also as the Missouri Prayer Mission) had a brochure and everything...none of it mentioning the third day teachings and beliefs. So as it was presented it appeared presentable and acceptable. I guess it is too much to expect a little honesty even among the "Christian" community anymore. Sooo...just my two cents. :-)


_________________
Shelly

 2003/10/31 22:49Profile
jouko
Member



Joined: 2003/10/9
Posts: 172
Ex-England colony of Australia

 Re: third reich

I suppose I have to put in 3-4 cents as the US cent is worth a bit more than the Australian cent. On the Wagner Leadership page it reads; It's time to cast a bigger vision, and The Spirit of God is releasing new creative and innovative ways to increase the Kingdom of God on earth.

Didn't the serpent tell Eve about a new and innovative way to deal with God ?

Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
Gen 3:5 for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as God, knowing good and evil.

Isn't this pretty much what is happening today.
I read about Mr Wagner quite a lot of years ago and even then his "new" theology stunk. Credit God with your own theology and people will listen, unless of course they check out what the true word of God says, but that can be overcome by courses that will teach you everything without opening the Bible.

2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure the sound doctrine; but, having itching ears, will heap to themselves teachers after their own lusts;
2Ti 4:4 and will turn away their ears from the truth, and turn aside unto fables.

There's a lot of good pages on the net about different doctrines but I seem to get stuck on them instead of asking for guidance in prayer and studying the word of God. But I'll chuck two more in here among the ones already mentioned.

http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/thirdwaveteachings.html

http://www.discernment-ministries.com/2003JulyAugust.pdf

It looks as if all these "new things" have something in common somewhere along the "time".

1Jo 1:1 That which was from the beginning, that which we have heard, that which we have seen with our eyes, that which we beheld, and our hands handled, concerning the Word of life
1Jo 1:2 (and the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare unto you the life, the eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us);
1Jo 1:3 that which we have seen and heard declare we unto you also, that ye also may have fellowship with us: yea, and our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ:

We don't need a new thing or teaching, there is no life in it. Personally I'm very sceptical about anything "new" that is presented as the "other way". There is only one way and that is Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Some more from the word of God.

Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward [is] with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Rev 22:14 Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.



:roll:



_________________
Jouko Hakola

 2003/11/1 1:37Profile
todd
Member



Joined: 2003/5/12
Posts: 573
California

 Re:

Everlast,
This is very interesting to me so I am hoping you will be willing to indulge my curiosity. Are you claiming that a group of Christians came and used "your" church building under the "disguise" of the Missouri Prayer conference and intentionally tried to deceive you and were intentionally dishonest?

What specific things did they teach that bothered you?

You wrote:
"Our pastor would not have given permission had he realized their intentions."

Did he say this? What exactly did he say?

What were their intentions? Did they not talk about prayer? Did they include some controversial teachings about prayer that you (and/or your pastor) are uncomfortable with? Did you talk to them about it (the actual people)? Did you try and understand their position on these teachings? If so, what is there position? What are the controversial teachings?

If they came under "the front" of the Missouri Prayer conference, is there no accountability within the leadership of this conference that they wouldn't know about these teachings? If we are going to get into blaming, whose to blame here? Are you saying that these people also intentionally deceived the leadership of the conference?

Very curious.

 2003/11/1 12:56Profile
todd
Member



Joined: 2003/5/12
Posts: 573
California

 Re:

jouko,
you wrote:
"Didn't the serpent tell Eve about a new and innovative way to deal with God?"

Yes, and William Carey and Martin Luther (to mention a couple) told the church the same.

Here's my two cents on that thought. Throughout the history of the church, God has contstantly done new things (which seems to be a process of bringing it [b]back[/b] to where He wants it). When they are first introduced, they receive overwhelming amounts of critisizm. But these these contoversial men go on, knowing that they are accountable to God and not man.

Challenging church tradition is always going to be controversial.

Quote:
"We don't need a new thing or teaching, there is no life in it. Personally I'm very sceptical about anything "new" that is presented as the "other way"."

I wonder if you would have supported William Carey as he set sail for India. WOuld you have joined Luther as he broke with church tradition and led a "new way"?

I am always trying to do this but have never challenged you before, so here goes:

Would you be willing to get specific about a teaching or doctrine that bothers you and deal with it objectively and fairly? To take one at a time and see what we can come up with? Be willing to be patient and do some sound research? I will let you pick the teaching. If you are up for it, go ahead and start a fresh thread in the appropriate place (probably "Scriptural Debates" or "Doctrines of the BIble"?).

Looking forward to the sharpening process.

 2003/11/1 13:23Profile
jouko
Member



Joined: 2003/10/9
Posts: 172
Ex-England colony of Australia

 Re: Re

Thank you todd. First of all, if I in any way offended you or anybody else I want to apologise as it wasn't my intention. The comment was a personal comment on something I have experienced not too far back and due to it I now have no congregation I call home, neither has my family. I based the reasoning and action behind our decision on the word of God and due to it couldn't agree with the practices being introduced into the church, also it wasn't a whimsical action but a decision based on over many years. We now feed ourselves and others on video sermons and from sermons here at Sermonindex which complement our reading and studies from the word. I have always maintained an attitude that no matter who it is that preaches it has to agree with the Bible. Australia is not my country of birth neither my better halfs which is Finland. The thought of going to Australia might have started as an adventure but has turned into something else. I believe I'm doing work for the Lord in a way He and no one else has organised and how do I personally know that, I have peace in my soul which you might not believe nor like as proof. In no way do I compare myself to any of the great men of the past and today but I do want to be faithful to His word.

I don't believe that the gentlemen you mentioned did anything "new" but what the word commanded. William Gurnall stayed where he was but still did great work. Luther himself exhorted christians to be diligent in following Christ and not man and Carey did what the word says about taking the gospel to the ends of the earth.
Both countries where I lived quite long have a state church, Lutheran, but that doesn't make the members christians neither does being a Baptist etc.
As for being controversial or challenge church traditions my opinion is this. It doesn't prove anything except that you have an opinion about something, and unless it can be proven from the word of God to be true it has no value except maybe an awakening which might make you research and find the truth. Many of my friends in Finland,Sweden and Australia are deceived into thinking that by being a member and following the traditions of their church and being a good person will eventually lead them to a glorious life in heaven. I dispute that as I'm sure you do. As for supporting, I support this site and anything worthwile that will honour the will of God and give him the glory. Do you support Sermonindex ? If you do, well done and many a blessing to you, if not, you should think about doing just that.

As for Everlasts post, a wolf doesn't advertise his/her intentions but we are commended to be aware of them if that is what it was at her church. Carter Conlon preaching Wolves is worth listening to. http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/viewcat.php?cid=123&min=80&orderby=titleA&show=20

Mat7:15 Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravening wolves.

As for debates, yes I will start a debate on the subject of "A New Thing" and please don't judge me for my language, english isn't my mothertongue so to speak especially not in the biblical sense but I'm learning.


_________________
Jouko Hakola

 2003/11/1 22:16Profile
jouko
Member



Joined: 2003/10/9
Posts: 172
Ex-England colony of Australia

 Re: Re: Re

Just a continuation on my previous post. I received some mail the other day from I gather Koorong bookshop about Open Heavens Over Australia. It's a conference about Moving in the Spirit & Power of the Third Day. "..on the third day He will raise us up to live in His presence."

The participants will receive from the 'Great Heart' Himself. Furthermore, 'New gifts and anointings will be imparted, especially in the workshop sessions! And there is no question, we will all leave the conference on a higher level - empowered to move in the miraculous! Pastors and leadership teams don't miss the opportunity for impartation in the miraculous - Wednesday morning in the Pastor's Conference.

One of the leaders Todd Bentley is described as 'a new breed' healing evangelist with a strong prophetic anointing. In a meeting in Malawi Todd received an open vision of Jesus clothed in a scarlet robe walking among the new believers. Wherever Jesus was standing, dozens of people in theat area would fall under the power of the Holy-Spirit. The presence of God came as a glory cloud and hovered over the crusade grounds.
Marc Dupont speaks prophetically into individual churches, regions, or into the larger body of Christ and moves in impartation in three basic areas, spiritual gifts, the Father's heart, and healings.
John Arnott of Toronto writes. "I have known Marc Dupont for many years and know well of his pursuit of 'open heavens'. He accurately predicted the great outpouring of the Spirit in Toronto and has helpful and encouraging insight for all who seek more of God.
Sue Rinaldi is described as a modern day Levite with a refreshing expression from her heart.
David Orton is dedicated to renewal across the wider church. He also carries a prophetic word for breakthrough in the Western Church.
The vision for this conference is:
To experience an 'open heaven' in the miraculous and prophetic.
The Purpose:
To release a miraculous and prophetic anointing into the Australian Church.
To call the 'Third Day Church' into a new level of the presence and ways of God.

*Saturday night closing rally - a major youth event - bands, miracles, and prophecy with Todd Bentley.

This post fits in this thread and A New Thing.
You decide if we need this new thing called the Third Day Church and if it is biblical.


_________________
Jouko Hakola

 2003/11/3 2:11Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:
The participants will receive from the 'Great Heart' Himself. Furthermore, 'New gifts and anointings will be imparted, especially in the workshop sessions! And there is no question, we will all leave the conference on a higher level - empowered to move in the miraculous! Pastors and leadership teams don't miss the opportunity for impartation in the miraculous - Wednesday morning in the Pastor's Conference.



Of course, you won't be able to experience all these thigns without attending the conference... which I imagine costs. Sounds a lot like the Catholic priests and their selling of indulgances. But, instead of granting the forgiveness of sins and setting souls free from purgatory, they promise to bless you with all sorts of anointings.

Quote:

Sue Rinaldi is described as a modern day Levite with a refreshing expression from her heart.



Just what in the world is a "modern day Levite?"

I find it sad all these new "anointings" that all these "prophets" have to make up. I find it hilarious none of them ever come under the "Samson anointing." Why does it seem that of all the anointings I have heard that are being restored to the Church, "The Samson Anointing" never seems to be realeased.. But then again, I guess it's hard to fake being strong beyond measure. However, if they were to speak of such an anointing, they would probably spiritualize it and say "it is an anointing of destroying strongholds!"


_________________
Jimmy H

 2003/11/3 11:38Profile
lwpray
Member



Joined: 2003/6/22
Posts: 3318
Sweden

 Re: Third Day Church Arising

The salvation of the Lord secures a dwelling place for Himself, a setting in which He is able to reveal Himself, a secure and safe environment in which He invites a people to come to rest as He is at rest. This is Zion; this is the Church. This is also the foundation for a priesthood which stands serving Him who created Heaven and earth.

To claim the remotest compatibility, the slightest affinity between this and what goes on in some modern settings in the name of spiritual gifting and ministry gifts takes away the breath of a thinking man. To assert that the spirituality displayed, spirituality it is, in many of these conferences belongs to the prophetic realm makes a praying man cry. To proclaim the name of Christ to be the cover and mark of most of these events makes a sound man sick.

If this is Heaven I do not want to go there. I long for the clarity of the Crystal Lake. My heart yearns for the tree of Life. My being is attracted to the waters of the River of Life.
The waters in this third wave is muddy, polluted, and cannot serve as a reflection of what is to be expected in the realm of Eternity.

It has to be said, and I cry as I write, we are being deceived once again by leaders who aspire for prominent positions, who try to gather much and build their fame on numbers. The same tragic story repeated over and over again.

The time which we live in is marked by the Greek word husteros – the extreme, that which is far away, the end time. And it is certainly displayed in that which goes on in the name of renewal and reformation. Everything taken to the extreme. Everything taken to its maximum, and beyond. Twisted, distorted, hysteria.

The Father still invites to take part of His rest. A priestly ministry will even today focus on this rest. A priestly ministry has to offer this rest. This is at the heart of the Lord. This belongs to His, for ever new, ministration.


_________________
Lars Widerberg

 2003/11/3 12:23Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:
To assert that the spirituality displayed, spirituality it is, in many of these conferences belongs to the prophetic realm makes a praying man cry.



Well said lwpray.

Quote:
It has to be said, and I cry as I write, we are being deceived once again by leaders who aspire for prominent positions, who try to gather much and build their fame on numbers. The same tragic story repeated over and over again.



Indeed. But, has this not been so for quite some time, even from the days of the first apostles? The apostle Paul prophesied such concerning the church of Ephesus, and the apostle John said that in one church there was somebody there who enjoyed being first.


Yet once again, there will come a shaking of the heavens and the earth. One day everything will be tried by fire. That which can be shaken shall not remain. That which can be burned will not prevail.

As Ravenhill once said, all roads lead to the judgment seat.


_________________
Jimmy H

 2003/11/3 18:47Profile





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