Interesting. I am not calling you the devil (lol) but this is the scripture the Devil used to Tempt Jesus.
10 no harm will come to you; no plague will come near your tent.
11 For He will give His angels orders concerning you, to protect you in all your ways.
12 They will support you with their hands so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.
Anyway, forgive me if I am straying away from the subject, but I have always wondered why Jesus would keep Christians in the Tribulation, just to call them in the air to meet him, just to bring them right back down.
I plead ignorance here, I just don't understand.
Thank you for letting me ramble a bit.
If that first part of your post refers to what I said about being "guarded" during that time ... that is God's Word there, that I referred to.
Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will [u]keepG5083 thee from[/u] the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
"Keep" - #G5083 means "to guard, as a warden, to watch over" and it was the same terminology that John used in his verse "Joh 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest [u]keep them from[/u] the evil."
Same exact greek phrasology from the same author of both books. It doesn't mean "get them out and away from ...." ... but in the greek it means to "watch over & guard" ~ A.T. Robertson
2nd you asked, "Why are we being "caught up in the air".. ?
Because that's what He said would happen.
1Th 4:15-17 For we say this to you in the Word of the Lord, that we the living who remain/survive to the coming of the Lord [u]will not at all go before those who have fallen asleep.[/u]
Because the Lord Himself shall come down from Heaven with a commanding shout of an archangel's voice, and with God's trumpet. [u]And the dead in Christ will rise again First.[/u]
[u]Then[/u] we who remain/survive alive will be caught up together with them in the clouds to 'meet' with the Lord in the air. And so we will always be 'with' the Lord.
When HE "Descends" He's coming back 'for good', and we will be included in the armies that meet with Him & them(those dead, who get their glorified bodies first) to then take back the earth.
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him that sat on the horse, and against [u]His army.[/u]
Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints.
I'm sure the Lord would have more than just "ten thousands" of His Saints, if every righteous man since Genesis on to 'That Day', were all coming [u]back down[/u] 'with' Him.
We're 'the rest' of the army that joins them in the air.
"The meek shall inherit the earth"
In my book, wherever Jesus IS, that's where I want to be, whether I've gotta die to see Him in Heaven or go through till the end, to see Him Return/Descend/Come Again, etc.etc.
| 2005/8/12 13:12|
Cache Valley, Utah
Good Scriptures you posted there, YeshuaIsMyGod. Let me add something:
First of all, ALL of Matthew chapter 25 is escatalogical. In Matthew 24 he is speaking to His disciples about the end, then in chapter 25 he carries on by using parables to explain Himself better.
This is the key verse for chapter 25 (taken from the sheep and the goats parable, for this parable explains the prior two more clearly):
Verse 46 - [i]"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."[/i]
The point in all the parables are:
I hope this is clear.
| 2005/8/12 13:35||Profile|
Cache Valley, Utah
Also, this entire 2nd chapter of Thessalonians is absolutely vital:
[b]2 Thessalonians 2[/b]
[i]1Now we beseech you, brethren, [u]by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, [b]and[/b] by our gathering together unto him,[/u]
2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3Let no man deceive you by any means: [u]for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;[/u]
4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8[u]And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:[/u]
9Even him, [u]whose coming is [b]after[/b] the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,[/u]
10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
15Therefore, brethren, [u]stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.[/u]
16Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,
17Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.[/i]
| 2005/8/12 13:43||Profile|
Thanx for the answers. BTW Annie, that's a great list. To be honest, when I first got saved and started teaching Sunday School, it seemed as if the Scriptures clearly stated things about the "son of perdition" coming first, etc. But then I hear all the pre-trib stuff that is so popular. But after a while it seems like a bandwagon.
I like what Kent Hovind said about it. He stated that he was pretty pre-trib in his theology, but what man's idea of tribulation is, and what the Scripture's idea of tribulation is, may be two completely different things. He says things like, 'Oh no. No hot water.'
His video about the latter days is pretty shocking, but kind of makes fun of our American ways. Like how freaked out so many would be if there was suddenly no electricity, etc. If one-third of the stuff is true, the one world government is, and has been, well underway.
Dangers of Evolution Part A: http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=4546&commentView=itemComments
Dangers of Evolution Part B: http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=4547&commentView=itemComments
I really like what Hovind said concerning the "New World Order." Someone would say to Kent, 'Did you know there are Russians soldiers being transported into America.' To which he would reply, 'Great. Learn Russian so you can win them to the LORD.' He pointed out that none of the disciples were concerned with what the Romans were doing in the New Testament.
| 2005/8/12 22:58||Profile|
| Re: Wow !|
Hey Letsgetbusy, (hey means hi, down-yonder here :)
You've brought out some very powerful points, whether you knew it or not.
In that other thread today, I gave a website that is so informative and looks at or in the 'right places' of the forming of 'things'... yet her Links and maybe even she for that part, are or may be Pre-Trib. BUT, what they and many other very excellent sites that "watch the world and the Signs of the times" are doing is, Exactly what Jesus commanded us to do ... to 'Watch' the Signs. Beautiful !
I was trying to say in that other thread today, that "the revealing" spoken of in Daniel 12, was ONLY for those of that one generation that Jesus said, "would see the fulfillment of ALL these things", that He had just told them would happen and to watch for.
That's why I have so many Pre-Trib friends, because they are not so silly, as to think we won't, at the least, see Persecution big time, within our lifetime.
And the beauty of it is, and why we never fuss with each other, is because of what was said in Daniel 12. And what Jesus said about "Watch the signs".
No matter "What" a person presently belives, if they are open and humble before God and just obeying as He said, and are Watching ... then all they've read in The Word and read on their last days news sites, etc., will be opened to them (revealed) as these actual events begin to take place.
What Keith Greene had basically said way back was, "be open to either scenario", so that's what made me interrogate God and His Word on this subject ... I wanted Truth and nuttin' but ,,,, and felt, Only God and His Word, can give 100% innerant Truth.
The pre-trib belief only entered the Church back mostly around 1826 and on. Before that, you won't/couldn't find an Author on earth who believed or taught it.
I'm a weirdo for documenting and proving things out to the extreme, so I went around the world, so to speak, to find out where these different beliefs came from ... because as Keith said, I want to "stay open".
Open for God to show me, Either Way.
I'd personally would rather "Get Outta Here", ha ... I guess that's why, after that day at my kitchen table with notebook, I fought at first and said "NO GOD, THIS CAN'T BE." (honestly) and I didn't get a computer or internet, until 2002 ... so only my friends looked at the verses and saw it too.
I had no books or anyone to teach me this stuff. I was totally alone with my new found discovery and felt I was the only kook on earth.
It wasn't till about 1999 or 2000, that I found out that a whole bunch of folks were out there believing what I was seeing. I couldn't believe there were such people, cuz I had been so totally alone, for the most part, from '85 until about 2000 with what I believed, because of what I saw the O.T. and N.T. were saying on this issue.
Never read a Post or Mid Trib book until 2000, so all that I believed by myself, for 15 yr.s really exploded on me, when I began to read more Scholarly-Acedemics type books on the topic.
Then the second big explosion in my life, was to get a computer in 2002 and find tons of these post or mid trib folks all over the place .. Ha !
T'ain't fun being alone with something for that long. :-?
I'd have to say, one of the more Scholarly-Acedemically better of those sites is ...
He's got the ECF, the "Origins" of the belief, etc. etc.
Like I said, Mid-Trib doesn't bother me, as long as they know that "we are gathered at His Coming" and don't have two comings.
Whether they want to overlap seals, trumpets, and vials, doesn't matter worth the discussion.
We'll find out soon enough.
But the main point that I wanted to say, is that the point you brought out, that those Pre-Trib sites that give out "News" reports, etc. to confirm the signs of the times, are sites I frequent regularly. But they give out good daily news.
They're in my favorites, so if I can dig-em out, I'll post them here. I think one was Harpazo, or something like that.
It isn't "old age" that's killed my memory, but a disease ... I'm sorry ... But Thanks for Bearing with me.
His Love to you letsgetbusy !
| 2005/8/13 1:57|
| Re:Dragging a post over from another thread.|
First, I really enjoyed both YeshuaismyGod and Eli's posts too, Very much ,,, Thank you for them. Very edifying.
Yours in bold - mine not.
I need to do more work on this topic anyway, but I'd like you to agree or disagree with the meaning of the term 'tribulation'. Jesus tells the disciples, 'in the world, you will have tribulation, but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world' (John 16:33).[/b]
Oh Lord Yes. Ain't that the truth Sister.
[b]This clearly tells me that Jesus Himself, through faith in Him, is going to help me overcome the world (1 John 5:1 - 6). Also, in Ephesians, there is a recurring theme of 'children of disobedience' who are going to face 'the wrath to come'. In these texts (and probably others too) 'tribulation' is attributed to the adversary, and 'wrath' is attributed to 'God'.[/b]
Right on Sister. The tribulation is the "wrath of Satan" and the wrath of God is the Vials Rev 15:1&7 and 16:1.
About us "overcoming the world" as you've said here, Yes Mam, that is why it is mentioned so much in Rev. 2 & 3 of the characteristics of "The Overcomers" .... Amen.
Those who God chooses to "survive and remain" till His coming ... yes, He will "guard". Not meaning that it will be a piece of cake, because that word "survive" is pretty self-explanatory. "The Survivors" in Real Time/End Times :-) . Tough Bunch ! And God's MERCY knows what we can take (With Him), and knows which should go which way. He is full of Mercy toward us - Always.
[b]If Christians are still around when wrath is being poured out on children of disobedience, they have nothing to fear from God, only, to be prepared for tribulation from Satan - who has been causing tribulation most especially since Jesus came (and believers lined up with Him).[/b]
Amen !!!. Sounds like Overcomer talk to me Sister ~ Alleluia.
Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keepG5083 thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
"Keep" - #G5083 means "to guard, as a warden, to watch over" and it was the same terminology that John used in his verse "Joh 17:15 [u]I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.[/u]"
Same exact greek phrasology from the same author of both books. It doesn't mean "get them out and away from ...." ... but in the greek it means to "watch over & guard" ~ A.T. Robertson
[b]Can you explain why, then, when the 'great tribulation' is discussed, a cloud of confusion seems to descend and people (believers) talk as if God is going to send the wrath on them, when there is no evidence for this?[/b]
Pretty much, just "American Christians" are like this. Or those just living in the "free world".
Also, it might be interesting to notice, that even during the Vials, that they are poured out on or effect "ONLY those who have worshipped the beast, taken His number or worshipped his image."
Meaning, there will be those here still on earth, who have not done any of those three things.
I listen to International radio and I hear people, who I know are not "fully" Christian, who say, "Under no circumstances, will they take the mark or worship the beast.", and they're dead serious. But though they're not Christian,Christians, there will be those here on earth, obviously, who stay in their flesh, and come to Jerusalem, to worship the REAL Christ, besides the 1/3 of Israel, that are Chosen for Salvation "at" His appearing.
They are the ones who are not given a Resurrected Body, but will be alive to live through the Millenial reign.
[b]What is difficult or wrong or confusing about this simple separation between the two main reasons for distress which may be faced on earth by unbelievers and believers? [/b]
Sad question, literally. Makes my heart sink, literally also.
What's made it difficult, is that it WASN'T DIFFICULT prior to about 1826, as was said earlier on in this thread. No one taught pre-trib before that period. But since that "OUT" has been grabbed at, by the majority, "That's" what's made it "difficult" for folks to face.
With Darby and Scoffield, etc., shelling out that doctrine and spreading it to America,,, well, folks just grabbed for it and so that by 1909, No other teaching was allowed at The Prophecy Conferences. Very sad.
| 2005/8/15 0:54|
I think something AMAZING that God gave me was the Seven Bowls and the Seven Trumpets are EXACTUALLY THE SAME. They are the SAME events, just described differently. 1 and 2 don't look alike (last time i remember) but 3-7 sound almost word for word the same.
I'll leave you all with that... G-d bless
| 2005/8/15 3:28|
| Re: From dragging post from another thread.|
Have you ever been ready to hit the hay for the day, and suddenly a bunch of Scripture comes rushing into your head, and with an urgency ?
It was asked above in that thread/post ...
What is difficult or wrong or confusing about this simple separation between the two main reasons for distress which may be faced on earth by unbelievers and believers?
Well, that question stuck in my head/heart/spirit or whatever, like a knife, and I couldn't shake it ... then suddenly the Scriptures starting coming to mind and I shook at the thought of it (not in fear - but at the thought, that brother would betray brother or 'friend', etc.)
These were the verses that came ....
Mat 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
Mat 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
Mat 24:9 [b]Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Mat 24:10 And 'then shall many be offended', and 'shall betray one another', and shall hate one another.[/b] Mar 13:11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.
Mar 13:12 [b] Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.
Mar 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.[/b]
Luk 21:12 [b]But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues/churches (G4864), and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.[/b]
Luk 21:13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony.
Luk 21:14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:
Luk 21:15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
Luk 21:16 [b] And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolk, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.
Luk 21:17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.[/b]
These are why people are afraid.
It's one thing to think, "of course the 'world' will hate us and turn on us", but when Jesus says that it will be some of the "Church" that "turn you in", that is too heart crushing to even come near the mere thought of that happening. It's beyond the mind's ability to comprehend or grasp.
As Paul and Peter said, as long as you obey the laws of a land, are not violent, and in your own life, are a pacifist .... then God will Bless you with the parts above I did not put in Bold font. If you are persecuted "just" for your beliefs and NOT because you are violent, then that is dead wrong on their part for doing so.
We need the faith of Paul and the other's to get through the horror of what is coming upon this world. Almost every single O.T. prophet was killed and the same for the Apostles and Lord only knows, how many from the First Church on, right up until today, in other countries right now.
I will die for Christ and His Truth ... hear that right now.
And do not feel as some crazy "patriots, etc." out there, that I should have or use a gun or anything like that, to stop what's coming. It's NOT Scriptural to be a "zealot"... like Barrabus or try to "take over the country". Hog-wash !
Jesus went to the slaughter as a Lamb, and so should we, if it ever comes to that.
What's coming has been foretold by our Loving Savior and King, and you folks decide "who" you will follow. Christ or a man !
Compromise on that decision, for Temporary 'safety' and wind up losing Eternal Life.
Mat 16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
Every ministry under the sun, except for those that we've all talked about, the feel good ones, are saying we will see persecution and judgment ... even in last month's Billy Graham Decision magazine, he wrote about the coming judgment, and he's an easy going sorta guy.
And Richard Wurmbrand, who this site carries, warned of the coming persecution to the American Church !
That's why I liked that devotional by Oswald Chambers, that I posted one day.
I'll have to look up what date that was, about "Jesus, commited Himself to no man, because He knew what was in the heart of man". Amen to that !
It was one of the best writings about that Scripture verse I've read.
If brother betrays brother, JUST to protect themselves, or just because they just don't agree with someone else's "thoughts only", then woe unto them ... that "is" eternal damnation for them.
I'm sorry for sounding so harsh, but God has laid this on my heart, just as strong as my Love for my own flesh and blood.
The absolute need, for the "Fervent Love" for the Body, is what will make us decide, what we will be willing to do, no matter what happens. Look at Corrie ten Boom's testimony, from beginning to end, to understand what I'm trying to say with this post.
Put His Body First, above yourself, in all things, because it IS HIS BODY, and all your future decisions should be brought to GOD, with 'that fervent Love' always in heart & mind.
[u]Jesus said, My Kingdom is NOT of this world.[/u]
Pray hard for the Body of Christ, through-out the world. And Love Them.
That will determine your Eternal destination.
Be a Daniel.
Bless those with a heart for Him and Him only.
| 2005/8/15 4:52|
I see you've been busy answering my questions. Thanks. And WOW what a last post you've made!
This whole thing about being betrayed by one's own household has been nagging at me, ever since I realised it was the chief priests who led the elders and the Pharisees in the cry of 'Crucify'. This is also why John was there at the cross with Mary....
When the chief priests therefore and officers saw him, they cried out, saying, Crucify him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Take ye him, and crucify him: for I find no fault in him.
Later, I realised that of [i]course[/i] (no pun intended ;-) ) because Mary's cousin Elisabeth was married to a priest, not only John the Baptist but John the disciple (who was related to the High Priest's family) were related to Jesus. So [u]He was betrayed by His own[/u]. Judas was just a very important pawn who finally made a bad choice, but, which was completely in keeping with scripture. (Was he Simon the Pharisee's son?)
Completely off topic, this means that after Judas died and the eleven were with Jesus when He gave the great commission, there were TWELVE APOSTLES - the Great Apostle - the Chief Cornerstone - there, those who had been together from the start. New Jerusalem foundation? 8-)
I said it was off topic. Just wanted to share the thought. :-o
| 2005/8/15 11:23|
Ha ~ God has sure given you a brain, huh ?
Thank God, and that you are using it for Him.
I found that Oswald Chambers Devotional that I mentioned above and I love how He did it, without making people "cynical" or 'suspicious', yet nailed Christ's meaning to a tee.
Oh, and I added a devotional on Adversity that's good.
On that site, they give other Topicals, on the left side, that are of the same topic that you're on.
God Bless ... TTYL.
The Teaching of Disillusionment
Jesus did not commit Himself to them . . . , for He knew what was in man
Disillusionment means having no more misconceptions, false impressions, and false judgments in life; it means being free from these deceptions. However, though no longer deceived, our experience of disillusionment may actually leave us cynical and overly critical in our judgment of others. But the disillusionment that comes from God brings us to the point where we see people as they really are, yet without any cynicism or any stinging and bitter criticism. Many of the things in life that inflict the greatest injury, grief, or pain, stem from the fact that we suffer from illusions. We are not true to one another as facts, seeing each other as we really are; we are only true to our misconceived ideas of one another. According to our thinking, everything is either delightful and good, or it is evil, malicious, and cowardly.
Refusing to be disillusioned is the cause of much of the suffering of human life. And this is how that suffering happens if we love someone, but do not love God, we demand total perfection and righteousness from that person, and when we do not get it we become cruel and vindictive; yet we are demanding of a human being something which he or she cannot possibly give. There is only one Being who can completely satisfy to the absolute depth of the hurting human heart, and that is the Lord Jesus Christ. Our Lord is so obviously uncompromising with regard to every human relationship because He knows that every relationship that is not based on faithfulness to Himself will end in disaster. Our Lord trusted no one, and never placed His faith in people, yet He was never suspicious or bitter. Our Lords confidence in God, and in what Gods grace could do for anyone, was so perfect that He never despaired, never giving up hope for any person. If our trust is placed in human beings, we will end up despairing of everyone. http://www.rbc.org/utmost/index.php?month=07&day=30
The Teaching of Adversity
In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world
The typical view of the Christian life is that it means being delivered from all adversity. But it actually means being delivered in adversity, which is something very different. "He who dwells in the secret place of the Most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. No evil shall befall you, nor shall any plague come near your dwelling . . ." ( Psalm 91:1,10 ) the place where you are at one with God.
If you are a child of God, you will certainly encounter adversities, but Jesus says you should not be surprised when they come. "In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world." He is saying, "There is nothing for you to fear." The same people who refused to talk about their adversities before they were saved often complain and worry after being born again because they have the wrong idea of what it means to live the life of a saint.
God does not give us overcoming life He gives us life as we overcome. The strain of life is what builds our strength. If there is no strain, there will be no strength. Are you asking God to give you life, liberty, and joy? He cannot, unless you are willing to accept the strain. And once you face the strain, you will immediately get the strength. Overcome your own timidity and take the first step. Then God will give you nourishment "To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life . . ." ( Revelation 2:7 ). If you completely give of yourself physically, you become exhausted. But when you give of yourself spiritually, you get more strength. God never gives us strength for tomorrow, or for the next hour, but only for the strain of the moment. Our temptation is to face adversities from the standpoint of our own common sense. But a saint can "be of good cheer" even when seemingly defeated by adversities, because victory is absurdly impossible to everyone, except God. http://www.rbc.org/utmost/index.php?month=08&day=02
| 2005/8/15 13:43|