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letsgetbusy
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Joined: 2004/9/28
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Cleveland, Georgia

 Last Days Doctrine

Please try to stay on topic with this, brothers and sisters.

I am somewhat familiar with the end times doctrines that are used in the Left Behind series. I have heard two people that I respect tell me that there are errors in the line of thinking that is in current, popular end times teaching.

Please present flaws of the current end times teaching with Scripture only, please(no opinions of modern prophets).


_________________
Hal Bachman

 2005/8/11 16:29Profile









 Re: Last Days Doctrine

So i take this is a Pre-trib/mid/post discussion.

Here are a few scriptures. (I'll let the scriptures speak for themselves, using highlights (bold,underline, itatlics))

**Scriptures are in different versions to show what the greek/hebrew says without quoting all the greek and stuff, if you have a problem with the translation then go to www.blueletterbible.org and check out the orginal language yourself...**

Rev. 3:10 (AMP)

10 Because you have guarded and kept My word of patient endurance [have held fast the lesson of My patience with the expectant endurance that I give you], I also will[b] keep you[u] [safe][/u] [/b] from the hour of trial (testing) which is coming on the whole world to try those who dwell upon the earth.

Proverbs 10:30 (KJV)
30 The righteous shall [b]never[/b] be removed: but the wicked shall not inhabit the earth.

John 17:15 (AMP)
15 I do [b]not [/b]ask that You will [u]take them out of the world,[/u] but that You will keep and [b]protect[/b] them from the evil one.

Acts 1:9-12 (NASB)

9 And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.
10 And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them.

11 They also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, [b]will come in just the[u] same way [/u]as you have watched Him go into heaven." [/b]

12 Then they returned to Jerusalem [b]from the mount called Olivet,[/b] which is near Jerusalem, a Sabbath day's journey away.


Zech. 14:4-5 (NASB)

4 [b]In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives[/b], which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south.

5 You will flee by the valley of My mountains, for the valley of the mountains will reach to Azel; yes, you will flee just as you fled before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah Then the LORD, my God, will come, and all the holy ones with Him!

1 Thess. 5:15-16 (NASB)

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are [b]alive and [u]remain until[/u] the coming of the Lord,[/b] will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and [i][b]the dead in Christ [/b]will rise first. [/i]


1 Cor. 15:50-54 (NASB)

50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,

52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the[b] last trumpet[/b]; for the trumpet will sound, and the [u]dead will be raised[/u] imperishable, and we will be changed.

53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory.

Rev. 10:7 (NASB)
7 but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, then the mystery of God is[b] finished,[/b] as He preached to His servants the prophets.

Rev. 11:15-19 (NASB)

15 The [b]seventh [u]angel[/u] sounded his trumpet[/b], and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:
"The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ,
and he will reign for ever and ever."

16 And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God,

17 saying:
"We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty,
the One who is and who was,
because you have taken your great power
and have begun to reign.

18 The nations were angry; and your wrath has come.
The time has come for judging the dead,
and for rewarding your servants the prophets
and your saints and those who reverence your name,
both small and great—
and for destroying those who destroy the earth."

19 Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant. And there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an [b]earthquake [/b]and a great hailstorm.

Rev. 16:17-21 (NASB)

17 The [b]seventh [u]angel[/u] [/b]poured out his bowl into the air, and out of the temple came a loud voice from the throne, saying, [b]"It is done!" [/b]
18 Then there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder and a severe earthquake. No earthquake like it has ever occurred since man has been on earth, so tremendous was the quake.
19 The great city split into three parts, and the cities of the nations collapsed. God remembered Babylon the Great and gave her the cup filled with the wine of the fury of his wrath.
20 Every island fled away and the mountains could not be found.
21 From the sky huge hailstones of about a hundred pounds each fell upon men. And they cursed God on account of the plague of hail, because the plague was so terrible.

John 6:39 (NASB)

39 "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but [b]raise it up on the [u]last day.[/b][/u]


I hope this is clear enough.

If you need commentary for me to connect the dots...i ask that you RE READ IT SLOWER, and compare the scriptures. God bless

 2005/8/12 9:39









 Re: Last Days Doctrine

The list of posttribulationalists.

Jay Adams

William Albright

Archibald Alexander

J. A. Alexander

Henry Alford

Oswald T. Allis

S.J. Andrews

Matthew Arnold

Francis Asbury

G. L. E. Bachmann

H. A. Baker

Glen Barker

David Baron

Freeman E. Barton

Don Basham

Clarence Bass

Walter Bauer

J. Sidlow Baxter

Richard Baxte

W. J. Ern Baxter

George Beasley

I. T. Beckwith

J. A. Bengel

Donald E. Benson

G. Fred Bergin

Louis Berkhof

G. C. Berkouwer

J. H. Bernard

Robert Besancon

Peter Beyerhaus

E. H. Bickersteth

W. E. Biederwolf

R. V. Bingham

Del Birkey

T. R. Birks

C. Y. Biss

J. Allen Blair

Friedrich Bleek

Horatius Bonar

William Booth

David Brainerd

Al Brickner

Thomas Brightman

Michael Brigmond

J. A. Broadus

Charles Brokenshire

J. W. Brooks

John Bunyan

Thomas Broughton

David Brown

Lionel Brown

W. G. Brown

F. F. Bruce

William Burgh

Clarke Burkhalter

Herbert W. Butt

John Calvin

Robert Cameron

Edward J. Carnell

B. H. Carroll

Buddy Carroll

Johnny Carroll

Alexander Carson

Thomas Chalmers

Robert Chapman

R. H. Charles

T. K. Cheyne

Thedor Christlieb

John Chrysostom

W. W. Church

Adam Clarke

Dwayne Clymer

Edmund P. Clowney

Harry Conn

W. J. Conybeare

Charles T. Cook

Ed Corley

J. J. Van Costerzee

Miles Coverdale

William Cowper

Wiliam E. Cox

Gerald Cronk

Henry Craik

Thomas Cranmer

Dan Crawford

Herman Cremer

William R. Crews

Alexander Cruden

William Cininghame

Donald Curby Sr.

G. H. Dalman

Harvey E. Dana

Lennard Darby

Carles Daubuz

Adolf Deissmann

Franz Delitzsch

Doug Dernier

Joe Doores

Norman F. Douty

Charles Duplisey

H. A. Ebrard

David Ebaugh's

Alfred Edershiem

Jonathan Edwards

John Eloit

C. J. Ellicott

E. R. Elliott

William J. Erdman

Charles R. Erdman

J. A. Ernesti

M. J. Evans

Patrick Fairbairn

A. R. Fausset

Howard Ferrin

Eric Fife

C. G. Findlay

Woodrow Finger

Charles Finney

Charles Fisher

John Foxe

Wayne Frair

August Francke

Henry W. Frost

George H. Fromow

Alexander Fuller

Daniel Fuller

Eugene Garner

Christian Garret

W. Ward Gasque

Oscar de Gebhardt

C. E. George

Don Gifford

John Gill

C. N. Goodwin

Charles Gore

James R. Graham

W. M. Greathouse

Jack Green

S. G. Green

E. Gresswell

Paul Grubb

H. Grattan Guinnes

Robert H. Gundry

Donald Hagner

Robert Haldane

Henry H. Halley

Floyd Hamilton

R. Laird Harris

Everett Hasper

James Hastings

Roy E. Hayden

C. Headlam

Shel Helsley

William Hendriksen

E. W. Hengstenberg

Carl F. H. Henry

Matthew Henry

Edward Hildebrand

Herschel H. Hobbs

A. A. Hodge

Charles Hodge

Jesse Hodges

J.C. K. von Haufmann

Kim Holt

Edward Horne

Kenneth Horner

F. J. A. Hort

Frank Haughton

Thomas Houghton

W. F. Howard

J. S. Howson

Henry T. Hudson

Archibald Hughes

Philip Hughes

John Huss

W. H. Isaacs

Frank Jackson

Paul G. Jackson

M. W. Jacobus

Orson Jones

Robert E. Jones

Russell B. Jones

Adoniram Judson

Kenneth Kantzer

Arthur D. Katterjohn

Karl F. Keil

S.H. Kellogg

H. A. A. Kennedy

E. Sidney Kerr

Kenneth Kirkland

T. F. D. Klieforth

John Knox

C. Norman Kraus

D. H. Kromminga

R. B. Kubel

Abraham Kuyper

George E. Ladd

Donald Lance

J. P. Lange

Hugh Latimer

G. V. Lechler

R. C. H. Lenski

Donald Lero

C. S. Lewis

H. G. Liddell

H. P. Liddon

J. B. Lightfoot

John Lillie

David Livingston

E. J. Lohmeyer

C. S. Lovett

William G Lowe

John Luchies

James S. Lucus

Lawrence Lunceford

C. E. Luthardt

Martin Luther

J. Gresham Machen

H. R. Mackintosh

Bruce N. McPherson

Dave McPherson

Norman McPherson

Walter A. Maier

C. D. Maitland

S. R. Maitland

Dan Mantey

J. C. Maris

Peter Marshall Jr.

H. L. Martensen

Walter R. Martin

Henry Martyn

Cotton Mather

Kenneth Maurer

Philip Mauro

Jack McAlister

Richard McCartney

Robert M-Cheyene

James H. McConkey

Alexander McLaren

Raymond McLaughlin

S. I. McMillen

A. H. McNeile

Robert McNeill

John McNichols

Robert McQuilkin

Joseph Mede

Phillip Melanchton

H. A. W. Meyer

A. Berkley Mickelsen

Jessie Mills

George M. Milner

Robert Moffa

John Warwick

Don Montgomery

Dale Moody

G. F. Moore

William Moorehead

G. Cambel Morgan

Leon Morris

Robert Morrison

H. C. G. Moule

James Moulton

Ernst Mueller

George Mueller

Andrew Murray

Iain H. Murrray

Eberhard Nestle

Benjamin Newton

Sir Isaac Newton

John Newton

Roger R. Nicole

R. L. Nissley

Dr. Harold J. Ockenga

W. O. E. Oseterley

C. Von Orelli

J. Edwin Orr

John Owen

Franics Paget

Ian Paisley

Joseph Parker

Blasise Pascal

John G. Paton

Leory Patterson

J. Barton Payne

James Payne

A. S. Peake

Duane Pederson

Tom Peters

J. B. Phillips

M. Pinault

E. J. Poole

A. W. Post

Gerald Primm,

Bernard L. Ramm,

Leonard S. Reid,

Robert G. Rayburn

Donald Reckart

Gary Reckart

Jr. Douglas Reddick

Paul Rees

Alexander Reese

W. Harry Rimmer

J. C. H. Rinck

A. T. Robertson

M. F. Roos

Goerge Rose

Marvin Rosenthal

W. J. Rowlands

Larry Joe Ruley

R. J. Rushdoony

J. C. Ryle

William Sailer

George Salmon

Ed F. Sanders

Dr. Adolph Saphir

John Scanzoni

Francis A. Schaffer

A. Von Schlatter

Herman Schultz

Anderson Scott

Robert Scott

Thomas Scott

J. J. Scruby

Michael Servetus

E. Shackleton

John T. Sharrit

Peter Shebley

T. T. Shields

Teignmouth Shore

Charles Simeon

A. B. Simpson

Emory Simmons

David Smith,

George Smith

Larry Smith

Oswald Smith

Jimmy Smithson

Henry Soltau

A. Souter

Charles H. Spurgeon

J. M. Stifler,

John R. W. Stott,

A.H. Strong

Moses Stuart

C. T Studd

Ray Summers

J. Grant Swank Jr.

H. B. Swete

Francis Steele

Iain Tait

Richard Taylor

W. Therodore Taylor

Merrill C. Tenny

J. H. Thayer

J. W. Thirtle

William C. Thomas

D. A. Thompson

Arthur Thrush

Bud Tingle

C. Von Tischendorf

J. H. Todd

Alan Toms

A. M. Toplady

Edith Torrey

Samuel P. Tregelles

Robert VanKampen

William Varey

Henry Varley

Geerhardus Vos

C. T. Walrond

B. B. Warfield

G. Henry Waterman

Issac Watts

A. S. Way

Cary N. Weisiger III

G. Christian Weiss

Charles Wesley

John Wesley

Nathaniel West

Henry G. Weston

R. F. Weymouth

William Whiston

W.S. Whitcombe

Frank H. White

George Whitefield

William Wilberforce

Roger Willaims

Robert Dick Wilson

G. B. Winer

Richard Wolffm

A. Skevington Wood

C. Stacey Woods

Paul Woolley

C. H. H. Wright

James Wright

H. L .Lindsay Young

Robert Young

Ronald Youngblood

Theodore Zahn

Samuel Zewmer

Ulrich Zwingli

Non PreTrib - David Wilkerson

 2005/8/12 10:35









 Re: My Burden.

The Resurrection of the Elect ... "Scripture Must Interpret Scripture".
And Scripture never contradicts Scripture... From the O.T. to the New.

The parable of the Harvest, the Net, the reaping Angels and "the Last Day".

Mat 13:37-43 He answered and said to them, He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man;
Mat 13:38 the field is the world; the good seed are the sons of the kingdom; but the darnel are the sons of the evil one.
Mat 13:39 The enemy who sowed them is the Devil;[u] the harvest is the end of the world [/u]Mat 13:40 Therefore as the darnel are gathered and burned in the fire, [u]so it shall be in the end of this world [/u]Mat 13:41 The Son of Man shall send out His angels, and they shall gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who do iniquity,
Mat 13:42 and shall cast them into a furnace of fire. There shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:43 Then the righteous shall shine out like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear.

Mat 13:47-50 Again, the kingdom of Heaven is like a net that was cast into the sea, and gathered some of every kind; Mat 13:48 which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but threw the bad away.
Mat 13:49 [u]So it shall be at the end of the world. The angels shall come out and separate the wicked from among the just[/u],
Mat 13:50 and shall cast them into the furnace of fire. There shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. . ; and the reapers are the angels.

Notice below in Matt.24 & Mark 13 ... again, the "angels" mentioned above are doing the same below, in these Gospel accounts.

Mat 24:29 And immediately [u]after the tribulation[/u] of those days, the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.
Mat 24:30 And then the sign of the Son of Man shall appear in the heavens. And then all the tribes of the earth shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of the heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. {Compare Matthew 24:30 to Rev 1:7 Behold, He comes with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, and those who pierced Him will see Him, and all the kindreds of the earth will wail because of Him. Even so, Amen.}

Mark 13:23-27 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you All things. But in those days, [u]after that tribulation[/u], the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken, and then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory, and then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Luke 21:25-27 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken, and then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. { The sun, the moon etc. "Before the Day of the Lord", Joel 2:10 & 31 & 3:15~ Acts 2:20 and Isaiah 13:9-13 ~ Ezekiel 32:7 & 8 ~ Matt 24: 29 ~ Mark 13:24 ~ Luke 21:25 ~ Rev. 6:12}

2Thess. 2:1-4 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together unto him, that ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. [u]Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed[/u], the son of perdition; who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

Joh 6:39 And this is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all which He has given Me I should lose nothing but should [u]raise it up again at the LAST DAY.[/u]

Joh 6:40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes on Him should have everlasting life. And [u]I will raise him up at the LAST DAY.[/u]

Joh 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who has sent Me draw him, and [u]I will raise him up at the LAST DAY.[/u]

Joh 6:54 Whoever partakes of My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and [u]I will raise him up at the LAST DAY.[/u]

Joh 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in [u]the resurrection at the LAST DAY.[/u]

{Dan 12:13 (written to Daniel himself) But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.}

[u]So Then we must ask ourselves ...

How many times is He coming in Glory, Coming in the Clouds, and Coming with His Angels and as a Thief ?[/u]

According to the Scriptures... He's only Coming 'Once' with or as, all of the above, and according to all verses, both O.T. & N.T. pertaining to "That Day" ... that is when we are resurrected. At "The First" Resurrection - Rev.20:4-6

[u]Those of the first Church, the Jews, knew this from the O.T. and knew that Day, as referred to as "The Day of the Lord" or "The Last Day" (as Martha did in Jn.11:24)- A Day of BOTH "Reward and Judgment", simutaneously.

~ Jesus Coming in “Glory” ~ [/u]

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

Luke 9:26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.

Luke 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

2Thess. 1:9 who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

2Thess. 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ

Rev. 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

[u]~ Jesus “Coming in the Clouds”.[/u]

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Matthew 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

Mark 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Luke 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
Acts 1:10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

1Thess. 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

[u]~ Jesus “Coming with His Angels“.[/u]

Matthew 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
~Matthew 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
~Matthew 13:48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
~Matthew 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Matt 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Mark 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

~Mark 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Luke 9:26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.

1Thess. 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

2Thessalonians 1:7-10 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
when he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.{verses 3-10 are actually one sentence.}

[u]~ Coming "as a Thief."

Matt 23:43, Luke 12:39, 1 Thess 5:2 & 4, 2 Pet 3:10.{Read All of 2Pet.chpt.3} Rev. 3:3 & 16:15

One Coming, One Resurrection of the Righteous... at His Coming.[/u]

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the Word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast nor his image, nor had received his mark on their foreheads, nor in their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. [u]This is the FIRST resurrection.[/u]
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the [u]FIRST[/u] resurrection. The second death has no authority over these, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him a thousand years.

There are only Two resurrections mentioned in the entire Bible.

The resurrection of the All the Righteous ~ "the 'First' Resurrection" - Rev 20:4-6.

And the Second Death is the after the Millenial Reign - Rev.20:10-14.
Not three or four resurrections.

Jesus tells us, it is at the "Last Day".

1Th 4:15 For we say this to you by the Word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain -> { Strong's - #4035 = Leave around or Survive} [u]until the Coming of the Lord[/u] shall not go before those who are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord Himself shall [u]descend[/u] from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ shall rise first.
1Th 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain -> {#4035 = Leave around or Survive} shall be caught up together with them [u]in the clouds, to 'meet' the Lord { As He descends/returns and those who had died previous, coming 'with' Him, vs.15 & Jude 1:14} in the 'air'.[/u] And so we shall ever be with the Lord. {He'll and we'll be returning to earth, as we meet "in the air" to reclaim the earth and reign with Him.}

 2005/8/12 10:55
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

If Chrisitans are not raptured before the Tribulation, what are they doing [u]during[/u] the Tribulation.

1 Thessalonians 5:9 says:
"For God hath not appointed us to [u]wrath[/u], but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Wrath used here is "Orge" which means..."anger exhibited in punishment."

It is the same word used in Luke 3:7
Then said he [John the Baptist] to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the [u]wrath[/u] to come?

My question, is the "wrath to come" the Tribulation?

 2005/8/12 11:50Profile









 Re: Last Days Doctrine

Dear Letsgetbusy,

I owe you an apology here.

I just re-read your post and saw you had asked for Scripture only.

I'm sorry I posted that list, but I immediately thought of the many Classic authors, and also of the Earliest of the Early Church Father's writings on this topic.

I have their quotes too, but now that I've re-read your original post, I'm not sure if you want anyone posting the ECFs on this.

I wait your reply on that, this is your thread and I want to respect that you originated it and where you want it to go ... and I will also stay with Scripture only, if I post again.

What had happened to me was, I once sat at my table, back in '85, because of something Keith Greene had just said back then on this issue, and with just my Bible alone, with cross-references in it and my Strong's concordance, I just stayed there all day, determined to find out, "Why all the controversy ?" and asked the Lord to just "lead me as a little ignorant child", because I was PreTrib and didn't know any other way to believe, but was hearing things from Keith and others at that time and finding Scriptures that made me doubt what I had believed and taught for years prior. But I didn't want 'anybody' to tell me what to believe and wanted only God's Word to speak for itself ... as I now appreciate, you do also. I'm sorry again that I didn't catch that part at my first reading of your post.

I sometimes have to read everything a couple of times.

Anyhow, what I did was, go from Genesis to Rev. and was determined to write down every single reference to "the last days" and all that entails, and I did, and put every single reference in my notebook. (Talk about writers cramp :-o ). All the while praying and sweating bullets, that maybe I had been wrong for all of those years (and taught it too, to others). The fear was awesome, but the end result of that day was Unbelievabley mind boggling.

But anyhow, Now thank God for computers, I have that old list on file.

If or when I'm able (physically) to post again, I'll put them up and try to make it more ship-shape topically.

I'm sorry again and Thanks ahead for pardoning my mistake.

Annie

 2005/8/12 11:57









 Re:

Wow, what a HUGE LIST, i knew of, about 6 of those people.

Quote:
If Chrisitans are not raptured before the Tribulation, what are they doing during the Tribulation.



I truly don't know that much about the whole 'future' and what it entails. But I believe (no scripture)it's just the same as it is today, but 'more so' (due to 'harsh' times ahead). (Witnessing, Making Disciples, and Holding/Standing Firm on THE Faith thru persecution).

I was reading a Psalm in a devotion. And this helped me and gave me yet 'another' comfort when looking towards the harsh, tough future we are going thru.

Psalm 91:5-10 (NASB)

5 You will not be afraid of the terror by night,
Or of the arrow that flies by day;

6 Of the pestilence that stalks in darkness,
Or of the destruction that lays waste at noon.

7 A thousand may fall at your side
And ten thousand at your right hand,
But it shall not approach you.

8 You will only look on with your eyes
And see the recompense of the wicked.

9 For you have made the LORD, my refuge,
Even the Most High, your dwelling place.

10 No evil will befall you,
Nor will any plague come near your tent.

 2005/8/12 12:11









 Re:

JaySaved,
I hope you don't mind if I answer this ... It's just that as I posted mine, I saw yours right then.

The wrath you quoted is the general wrath on all the unsaved, as seen in other type verses.

The Tribulation is not "the Wrath" ... The Wrath starts with the Vials Rev 15:1&7 and 16:1.

You asked, what will we be doing during the Trib.
Well in Rev. 6 we see the souls of them who had been killed, asking God When He will repay those who killed them, and God says, when the rest of your brothers are killed as you were. Then in Chpt 7 we see a whole company in Heaven. Those are they who had been killed for Jesus.

Many will be beheaded and killed for the testimony of Jesus, the rest will be "guarded" in the Greek, and used to "do exploits and win many to righteousness (Daniel)" and "survive" then to be caught up at the First Resurrection of Rev. 20:4-6.

The only place that Mid-Trib and Post-Trib folks differ, is in that most overlap the Trumpets with the Vials... which doesn't affect their diffences enough to make it worth much of a disagreement between them.

I have lots of friends on all sides. And we have very friendly talks and even joke with each other and it has never split us, but I think an honest query into God's Word on this is healthy.

Someone once asked, If I'm wrong, what do I have to lose, but if you're wrong, what will you have to lose.

I'd rather be ready for anything (like what Chinese Christians have to go through), because even my PreTrib Pastor buddy preaches about the coming persecution in this country.
So if it's only used to just get Strong in the Lord and the Power of His Might and cause us to cleave all the more to Him by Faith ... then we've lost nothing, to be ready for Anything.

My personal feeling is that Once the 7th angel sounds his trump ... we are caught up in the air and all the vials are poured out really rapidly.
A day of both Reward and Judgment, is all it says from the O.T. to the New.

Jesus said, as "birth pains" it will come ... which start off slow at first then increase in frequency and intensity, the closer to the end we come.

So "unless those days be shortened, no flesh would survive".

There will be those, who have not taken the Mark,but that are not truly Regenerated, that will live on earth during the Millenial reign, obviously, or else, who would be doing all the pro-creating during that time ... won't be us in our Glorified bodies, who rule and reign with Christ for those first 1000 yr.s.

I'm hoping I can get Jay's permission to post what the disciples of the Apostle John wrote.
They do a much better job than me.

God Bless ya.

 2005/8/12 12:21
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Interesting. I am not calling you the devil (lol) but this is the scripture the Devil used to Tempt Jesus.

Psalm 91:
10 no harm will come to you; no plague will come near your tent.
11 For He will give His angels orders concerning you, to protect you in all your ways.
12 They will support you with their hands so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.

Anyway, forgive me if I am straying away from the subject, but I have always wondered why Jesus would keep Christians in the Tribulation, just to call them in the air to meet him, just to bring them right back down.

I plead ignorance here, I just don't understand.
Thank you for letting me ramble a bit.

God Bless

 2005/8/12 12:21Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

The thing that gives me peace, is knowing that Jesus is my Lord! Whether I am around during the tribulation or not, as the old hymn goes "my hope is built on nothingless than Jesus Blood and righteousness!"

Amen

 2005/8/12 12:25Profile





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