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 Re:

Dorcas said in her 2nd post:

Many believe that the Lord will return in 2 days, or two thousand years. The time is short!

Stever, I see what you have written, but I don't see how it addresses the meaning of my post quoting Peter.
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Dorcas first post about one day being 1,000 years:

Here's my question: why do we take the 1000 years which is mentioned, as meaning 1000 years literally? Why would this number be literal, and others not?

2 Peter 3:8 (KJV)
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

2 Peter 3:8 (Young)
And this one thing let not be unobserved by you, beloved, that one day with the Lord is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day;

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Stever's response to dorcas:

2 Peter chapter 3 is in reference to the second coming of Jesus Christ. We are now in the "last days" and have been so since the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ". In 2 Peter God is saying that as far as PROPHETIC TIME is concerned in regards TO THE RETURN OF JESUS CHRIST, one day is the same as 1,000 years to the Lord.

The Jews are looking for their 1,000 year reign to start at the end of 6,000 years. The earth was created on the first day, all of their calendars go back to that first day of creation. Today, that beginning date of creation is very close to 6000 years ago. When that time arrives, Jesus WILL COME AGAIN.


2 Peter chapter 3 is referring to prophecy, the prophecy of the Lord's return:

"3. Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4. And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6. Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7. But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
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Many believe that the Lord will return in 2 PROPHETIC DAYS, or two thousand years. The time is short!

There is lots more to this study, including the 70 weeks of Daniel, etc. that I really don't want to get into here.

God bless,

Stever

 2005/8/12 16:40
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4499


 Re: Eternal Time Zone...

Hello...!

When reflecting on such events (such as "Judgment" Day -- or Days), it might be helpful to remember that in the realm of eternity, [i]there is no time[/i]. Thus, alot of mysteries remain in the Scriptures because of this concept.

For instance, what happens immediately after death? Some believers feel that we go straight to judgment. Others believe that we are exempt from judgment, and will face rewards. Still others believe that we remain in our bodies upon this earth until all things are fulfilled. It is a rather deep topic for discussion, because all can seemingly use Scripture for defense of their beliefs.

Jesus told the thief on the cross, "Today, you will be with me in paradise." According to the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, it could be argued that the rich man is already burning. And then there are the verses that pertain to the coming of the Lord, and the "dead in Christ" rising first. And of course, there are many verses that mention that a person is not dead, but "sleeping."

The point is, eternity is timeless. Without sounding "metaphysical" (believe me, I am NOT metaphysical), it might be helpful to remember that the concept of [i]time[/i] is a [i]created thing[/i]. God is [u]not[/u] confined to such a concept.

Has anyone considered that perhaps such timelessness in eternity can help explain something like the judgment? When a person dies, perhaps they "awaken" in eternity -- where all of human history has been finished and passed away. A person may die, and then open their eyes to discover that eternity has passed by -- and they are again with even those who died after them, getting ready to be judged. To them, it seemed only a second. But in the reality of eternity, earthly time has passed away.

This could help explain the parable of the sheep and the goats (Matthew 25). The Word is clear that there will be believers and non-believers standing together at the great judgment (Revelation 20:11-15). Perhaps such an understanding of time (or eternity) might explain that both judgments are one and the same.

Any thoughts?

:-)


_________________
Christopher

 2005/8/12 17:55Profile









 Re: Eternal Time Zone...

ccchhhrrriiisss said:

Hello...!

When reflecting on such events (such as "Judgment" Day -- or Days), it might be helpful to remember that in the realm of eternity, there is no time. Thus, alot of mysteries remain in the Scriptures because of this concept.

Stever's limited response:

God definitely exists in eternity, and yet still passes into and outside of time. The Bible is God’s message to man, with a promise that begins in Genesis, Chapter 3 that the seed of the woman will come, the Messiah, to reconcile fallen man to himself and save man from his sin. This message becomes more clear as time passes from Genesis through the remainder of the Old Testament, and even into the New Testament--all due to God's continuing revelation in His Word. Each Book provides more insight for us. Hence, the Bible is written in language that man can understand, but only by the power of the Holy Spirit:
1 Cor 2:7-16
7. But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, EVEN THE HIDDEN WISDOM, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8. Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9. But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10. BUT GOD HATH REVEALED THEM UNTO US BY HIS SPIRIT: FOR THE SPIRIT SEARCHETH ALL THINGS, YEA, THE DEEP THINGS OF GOD.
11. FOR WHAT MAN KNOWETH THE THINGS OF A MAN, SAVE THE SPIRIT OF MAN WHICH IS IN HIM? EVEN SO THE THINGS OF GOD KNOWETH NO MAN, BUT THE SPIRIT OF GOD.
12. NOW WE HAVE RECEIVED, NOT THE SPIRIT OF THE WORLD, BUT THE SPIRIT WHICH IS OF GOD; THAT WE MIGHT KNOW THE THINGS THAT ARE FREELY GIVEN TO US OF GOD.
13. WHICH THINGS ALSO WE SPEAK, NOT IN THE WORDS WHICH MAN'S WISDOM TEACHETH, BUT WHICH THE HOLY GHOST TEACHETH; COMPARING SPIRITUAL THINGS WITH SPIRITUAL.
14. BUT THE NATURAL MAN RECEIVETH NOT THE THINGS OF THE SPIRIT OF GOD: FOR THEY ARE FOOLISHNESS UNTO HIM: NEITHER CAN HE KNOW THEM, BECAUSE THEY ARE SPIRITUALLY DISCERNED.
15. BUT HE THAT IS SPIRITUAL JUDGETH ALL THINGS, YET HE HIMSELF IS JUDGED OF NO MAN.
16. FOR WHO HATH KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, THAT HE MAY INSTRUCT HIM? BUT WE HAVE THE MIND OF CHRIST.
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The Jews were held accountable because they should have known that Jesus Christ was the Messiah. At the time of Christ’s birth many, many families named their Children Joshua (Jesus) because it was the prophesized time of his coming! They did not recognize him because they were looking for a King to conquer the Romans and free their yoke. They were not looking for the other half of the Messiah, the suffering Messiah. Because of that their eyes were and are blinded by God because they did not recognize this the first time.
John 12:37
37. But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
38. That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
39. Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40. He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
41. These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.
42. Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:
43. For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.
44. Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.
45. And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.
46. I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
47. And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
48. He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
49. For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
50. And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.
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Romans 11 tells us much the same thing:
7. What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
8. (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
9. And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
10. Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
11. I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
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2 Cor 3 continues:

13. And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
14. But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16. Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
17. Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
18. But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
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2 Cor 4 continues:

3. But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4. In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

God bless,

Stever

 2005/8/12 19:37









 Re: Eternal Time Zone...

Quote:
The Word is clear that there will be believers and non-believers standing together at the great judgment (Revelation 20:11-15). Perhaps such an understanding of time (or eternity) might explain that both judgments are one and the same.

In the parable of the sheep and the goats, Jesus is making sure [i]no-one[/i] can say they had no idea on what basis their actions would be judged.

Most of my thoughts on the last day are built logically round Old Testament prophecy and its fulfilment and, how the meaning of the operation of the gospel fixes certain factors - such as our judging ourselves worthy of death. (This is not to be confused with once saved always saved.) It is also clear from Jesus teaching, that some people will bear more fruit than others, and only those who have done nothing to multiply what they were given, will be found wanting.

I love your comments about eternity. 'In the Spirit' we are in 'eternity'. We have the unique ability to be in our bodies and in eternity (or have eternity in us) simultaneously.

Some years ago, I heard of Return from Tomorrow by George Ritchie, in which he describes a particularly long near death experience in which he was with Christ, who showed him things - how things workk - and one of them was this that you have mentioned, the disappearance of 'time' from the consciousness. The author was simultaneously aware of all his failures - his whole life - and that Christ loved him anyway. All that (his twenty years) happened in a split second or two.

I once heard an excellent sermon on Lazarus and the rich man. The preacher wanted us to know that when we die, we will wake up. Like CS Lewis, he told us the other side of the grave would be more real that this side. It made a big impression on me. As with so many things in life on earth, we experience perceptual disorientation unless we are open to the Spirit's work of connecting our understanding in the way God wants.

According to Jesus, Lazarus was being rewarded by leaning on Abraham's bosom; again, it is a closer relationship we 'win' not a material prize. May we consider whether this is an aspect of 'hell' not to be despised. If you're the person with his one talent wrapped in a napkin. After it has been taken from you and given to the person with the most, the bad thing that happens to you, is your relationship with Christ is severely diminished, if not, very nearly over for good.

 2005/8/12 21:27









 Re: Eternal time zone

ccchhhrrriiisss said:

This could help explain the parable of the sheep and the goats (Matthew 25). The Word is clear that there will be believers and non-believers standing together at the great judgment (Revelation 20:11-15). Perhaps such an understanding of time (or eternity) might explain that both judgments are one and the same.

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Stever's response:

It has always been my understanding that the separation of the Sheep and Goats takes place at the end of the Tribulation and that the sheep are mostly (but not all) Jews that came through the Tribulation alive and all became believers in Jesus Christ- many of them supernaturally protected by Jesus Christ. The Goats are the ones that are taken, and killed, and will await judgment at the end of the Millennium, at the Great White Throne. The Sheep on the other hand enter the Millennial Kingdom in their bodies of flesh and blood with Christ and will have children (millions upon millions upon millions [billions] of them) during the thousand year reign. At the end of the thousand year reign Christ releases Satan out of the bottomless pit one more time to deceive the Nations. Sadly, billions of people are deceived by Satan. Who are these billions? The children of the saved "sheep" that entered the millenium with Christ!


Also, it has always been my understanding as well that the saints, in their resurrected bodies will be present at the great white throne judgment to judge the fallen angels. No one that is saved will have to go through the Great White Throne to be judged. This judgment is only for the lost, because they are counting on their own works to save them [ in comparison to the Christian who looks to Christ and the works that only He performed on Calvary and the Resurrection]. At this judgment their works are compared against the standard--God's Law. Everyone that attends this judgment is found to be lacking and will receive the fair judgment for their sin- separation from God forever, in hell.

God bless,

Stever

 2005/8/13 1:02









 Re: Eternal Time Zone

Ccchhhrrriiisss said:

"Has anyone considered that perhaps such timelessness in eternity can help explain something like the judgment? When a person dies, perhaps they "awaken" in eternity -- where all of human history has been finished and passed away. A person may die, and then open their eyes to discover that eternity has passed by -- and they are again with even those who died after them, getting ready to be judged. To them, it seemed only a second. But in the reality of eternity, earthly time has passed away."

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Stever's response: Paul cleared up the matter when he told us that for the Christian: "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord". As far as non-believers, they will enter hell, the holding tank that Christ told us about in the parable of Lazarus and the Rich man. Lazarus went to Abrahams bosom where all of the Old Testament believers in the Messiah resided. The rich man went to hell, where all of the non-believers are, awaiting the Great White Throne.

God's word tells us that when Christ returned to heaven, he took "captivity captive" with Him back to heaven. In other words, all of the Old Testament believers housed in Abraham Bosom were released and went with Christ to heaven:

Ephesians 4:8-10 tells us: " 8. Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10. He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)"

Also, Revelation tells us that the Souls (not the resurrected bodies) of the beheaded Saints stand before (under)the altar, worshipping God and Jesus Christ:

" 9. And when he had opened the fifth seal, I SAW UNDER THE ALTAR THE SOULS OF THEM THAT WERE SLAIN FOR THE WORD OF GOD, AND FOR THE TESTIMONY WHICH THEY HELD:
10. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?"


God bless,

Stever

 2005/8/13 1:19
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4499


 Re:

Hi Stever...!

Quote:
Stever's response: Paul cleared up the matter when he told us that for the Christian: "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord".



But have you considered that this verse [i]seemingly[/i] contradicts other verses concerning the Lord's return, like "the dead in Christ will rise first?" Perhaps those who are dead are not yet [i]absent from the body[/i]. Perhaps, they are [i]asleep[/i] (Mark 5:39 - Daniel 12:2 - John 11:11 - etc...).

Quote:
As far as non-believers, they will enter hell, the holding tank that Christ told us about in the parable of Lazarus and the Rich man. Lazarus went to Abrahams bosom where all of the Old Testament believers in the Messiah resided. The rich man went to hell, where all of the non-believers are, awaiting the Great White Throne.

God's word tells us that when Christ returned to heaven, he took "captivity captive" with Him back to heaven. In other words, all of the Old Testament believers housed in Abraham Bosom were released and went with Christ to heaven:"

I have heard this argument presented many times in churches, theological books and on Christian television. However, I still cannot say with any certainty that this theory is correct. If you read the chapter (Ephesians 4) as a whole, it is not clear what "the lower parts of the earth" are, let alone who or what "captivity captive" signifies. Remember, [i]Hell is[u] not[/u] located on or in the earth[/i]. Hell is a spiritual place (remember that part about Lazarus in "Abraham's bosom" looking into Hell -- and vice versa). And when it speaks of "leading captivity captive," it seems to be directed about the grace given to [u]us[/u] -- not just OT "believers." While such dogma is commonly accepted among many modern churches (and television preachers), it seems to contradict with so many other verses concerning the dead being "asleep" -- confined to earth and the concept of time -- and waiting for the Lord's return.

Again, there are many who believe that there are two seperate judgments -- one for the believer and one for the non-believer. Yet nearly every verse concerning judgment seems to point that there will be both sheep and goats present at the judgment.
Take for instance, 2 Corinthians 5:6-11...
Quote:
"Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. [b]For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad[/b]. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences."

There are other such verses pertaining to a single judgment -- where God [i]divides[/i] the saved from the unsaved. I will leave those verses at the bottom of this post.
Quote:
"Also, Revelation tells us that the Souls (not the resurrected bodies) of the beheaded Saints stand before (under)the altar, worshipping God and Jesus Christ:"

Again, this seems quite a result of the [i]timelessness[/i] of eternity (as mentioned in my earlier post). Remember, when John stepped through that open door in Revelation 4:1, he was now in the realm of eternal time, rather than earthly time. Perhaps the dead remain "[i]asleep[/i]" until the return of the Lord. At this point, the dead will awaken for judgment (the resurrection of the dead).
Quote:
"Because of that their eyes were and are blinded by God because they did not recognize this the first time."

Not all jews are "blinded" by the truth about the Messiah. There are quite a few (even on this board -- and in the sermon archives) that have found Christ.

[b]Matthew 25:31-46[/b] - The Sheep and the Goats
[b]I Corinthians 15[/b] - concerning the Resurrection of the Dead -- and how it will happen
[b]Revelation 20:11-15[/b] - ALL will stand before the Great White Throne, and those whose names are not found in the Book of Life will be cast into the lake of fire
[b]2 Peter 2:20-21[/b] - Calvinists' ouch.
[b]Hebrews 9:27[/b] - Judgment AFTER death.
[b]Romans 14:9-12[/b] - ALL will stand on judgment to give an account to God.
[b]Romans 2:1-11[/b] - Some at this [i]DAY[/i] (vs. 5) of judgment will be punished, while others will be exalted.
[b]Acts 17:31[/b] - Again, a DAY of judgment.
[b]I Thessalonians 1:5-12[/b] - Judgment Day for BOTH sinners and saints after return of the Lord.
[b]Matthew 16:27-28[/b] - Judgment AFTER the Lord returns.
[b]2 Timothy 4:1-8[/b] - God will judge the "quick and the dead" on that day.
[b]Matthew 13:24-30[/b] - Parable of the Wheat and the Tares
[b]I Thessalonians 4:13-18[/b] - Those who are "asleep" will be caught up in the air.

:-)


_________________
Christopher

 2005/8/13 2:58Profile









 Re:

Ccchhhrrriiisss said:

But have you considered that this verse seemingly contradicts other verses concerning the Lord's return, like "the dead in Christ will rise first?" Perhaps those who are dead are not yet absent from the body. Perhaps, they are asleep (Mark 5:39 - Daniel 12:2 ...)


Stever's response:

No, not really. You are referring to two separate events. The Second Coming of Christ is one event, foretold in the Old Testament, as well as the the New, where Christ likens that event to a "Thief, coming to kill and destroy"- your references above -- Mark 5:39 - Daniel 12:2.... refer to the Second Coming (not the rapture). The Rapture is A DIFFERENT EVENT that is NEW REVELATION KNOWLEDGE FROM JESUS CHRIST THAT PAUL REVEALS TO US IN CORINTHIANS AND THESSALONIANS. At this event Christ comes to get His saints- the dead in Christ rise first from their graves and the living meet HIM in the air, FOREVER TO BE WITH THE LORD IN THEIR NEW RESURRECTED BODIES.

When the Lord comes, at the Second coming, He comes with his saints in their resurrected bodies (NOT TO GET HIS SAINTS), and He comes to KILL AND DESTROY:

Zechariah 14 refers to this event (the second coming): 4. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5. And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: AND THE LORD MY GOD SHALL COME, AND ALL THE SAINTS WITH THEE.

Specific Bible verses that refer to the RAPTURE, and NOT the Second Coming:

1 Thes 4:13-18; 1 Cor 15:50-58; 1 Thes 4:15-18; John 14:2-3; Col 3:4; 2 Thes 2:1; 1 John 3:2; 1 Cor 1:7, 13:12


In regards to the SECOND COMING 1 Thes 5:2 tells us that the Second Coming (Not the Rapture) will coincide with the beginning of the "Day of the Lord"-
1. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

It is very confusing, but if we look at the verses closely we see the difference. Just one example is 1 John 3:1-2 where it tells us that at this event (the Rapture) we will become like CHRIST:
"1. Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."


I can continue with this comparison of these TWO SEPARATE EVENTS if there is any interest. In all of the references to the Rapture Christ never comes to KILL AND DESTROY. That event-THE SECOND COMING, OCCURS at the end of the Tribulation when Christ comes to take those that are still living into the 1,000 year Millenial Reign of the Messiah on this earth.At the Second coming He comes to separate the sheep from the Goats. At the Rapture He comes to get His Saints, who will forever be with Him. These same ratpured saints will accompany Him at the Second Coming to rule and reign with Him during the Millennium.


God bless,

Stever

P.S. At the Rapture, why would Christ need to separate the Sheep from the Goats??? They would already have been separated by the Rapture itself. We have two separate events occurring for two separate purposes. In one event Christ comes to get his saints and give them their new resurrected bodies. In another event Christ comes with his resurrected saints to save those that beleive in Him from the extermination of antichrist, and to lead them into the millennium.


 2005/8/13 10:58









 Re:

Ccchhhrrriiisss said:

Again, there are many who believe that there are two seperate judgments -- one for the believer and one for the non-believer. YET NEARLY EVERY VERSE CONCERNING JUDGMENT SEEMS TO POINT THAT THERE WILL BE BOTH SHEEP AND GOATS PRESENT AT THE JUDGMENT.


Stever's response:

Please quote scripture for your statement that I have capitalized above- you are in error.


Ccchhhrrriiisss said:

Again, there are many who believe that there are two seperate judgments -- one for the believer and one for the non-believer


Stever's response:

There are indeed two separate judgments. One, that only Christian believers attend is referred to as the "Judgment Seat of Christ", the Bema Judgment. There are references to this judgement in the New Testament, all introduced by Paul because it is New Revelation knowledge that He received from Jesus Christ personally. Everyone that goes through this judgment is still SAVED at the end of the judgment. The Judgment seat of Christ is a judgment for rewards.

For we (Paul is referring to Christian believers) must all appear before the Judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad-2 Cor 5:10.
WE [CHRISTIAN BELIEVERS] SHALL ALL STAND BEFORE THE JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST (or God’s judgment seat). FOR IT IS WRITTEN, AS I LIVE, SAITH THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME, AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL CONFESS TO GOD. SO THEN EVERY ONE OF US SHALL GIVE (an) ACCOUNT OF HIMSELF TO GOD-Romans 14:10-12.
THEREFORE THE UNGODLY SHALL NOT STAND IN THE JUDGMENT-Ps 1:5. FOR THE TIME IS COME THAT JUDGMENT MUST BEGIN AT THE HOUSE OF GOD: AND IF IT FIRST BEGIN AT US, WHAT SHALL THE END BE OF THEM THAT OBEY NOT THE GOSPEL OF GOD? AND IF THE RIGHTEOUS SCARCELY BE SAVED, WHERE SHALL THE UNGODLY AND THE SINNER APPEAR?-1 Peter 4:17,18.
Finally, know this, HEREIN IS OUR LOVE MADE PERFECT, THAT WE MAY HAVE BOLDNESS IN THE DAY OF JUDGMENT: BECAUSE AS HE IS, SO ARE WE IN THIS WORLD-1 Jn 4:17.
Note the words, in 1 Cor 5:5-THAT THE SPIRIT MAY BE SAVED IN THE DAY OF THE LORD JESUS.

I posted this earlier, but you must have missed it:

Stever writes:

I have a very good Bible study on the Bema judgment seat of rewards, the Judgment Seat of Jesus Christ:


THE JUDGMENT SEAT OF JESUS CHRIST

1. What is the Judgment seat (Bema) of Jesus Christ?

The "Bema seat" (or judgment seat) was an elevated seat, located in Corinth. At this seat in the square, Roman magistrates would sit and administer justice. Athletes may also have appeared here and received rewards for having distinguished themselves.
If a person is unsaved and dies in their sin, they will be judged at the "great white throne judgment" following the Millennium. If a person is a born-again believer in Jesus, they will be judged at the "judgment seat of Christ." Salvation is not an issue at this judgment. Their sins have already been forgiven. A person might then ask, how will we be judged? and for what will we be judged?
At this judgment, we must give an account of our life and what we did or did not do for the Lord. The believer's service to God will be reviewed and rewarded. For his lack of service or doing certain things, he will suffer loss. We will be held responsible for the things we did in our body. Every hidden thing will be made known. Every secret thing we said will be proclaimed; nothing will be hid. All believers must appear before this judgment seat.
So many Christians today think that doing this or that worldly thing is more important than spending the time in God's Word and serving Jesus, witnessing to the lost, feeding the poor, and loving others as ourselves. At this judgment, we should indeed see how unimportant so many things we did really were. All of the extra time that was spent listening to a radio or television, or reading meaningless books, may cause us to lose rewards for eternity. All of the extra time that we wasted and spent doing so many meaningless things, such as running after money, pleasures, cares of this life (those things that were not of Jesus), these may now affect our rewards for eternity. This judgment is a judgment of receiving rewards and suffering loss of rewards. A Christian's true desire should be to hear the words, WELL DONE, THOU GOOD AND FAITHFUL SERVANT-Mt 25:21. Paul's attitude should be the Christian's attitude. As it is written, YEA DOUBTLESS, AND I COUNT ALL THINGS BUT LOSS FOR THE EXCELLENCY OF THE KNOWLEDGE OF CHRIST JESUS MY LORD: FOR WHOM I HAVE SUFFERED THE LOSS OF ALL THINGS, AND DO COUNT THEM BUT DUNG, THAT I MAY WIN CHRIST-Phili 3:8. Indeed, how important some worldly things or pleasures seem to the Christian now, yet how worthless they will be at this judgment. As a Christian, we need to believe the Gospel and live to please Jesus and not ourselves. We need to ask ourselves in the many things that we do, "What fruit for Jesus is in it? Is what I am doing pleasing to the Lord? Will this greatly hurt me by causing a loss of rewards?"

2-THE JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST IS FOR BELIEVERS

The judgment seat of Christ is for those who have passed from death unto life through Jesus Christ.
Verily, verily, i say unto you, he that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life-jn 5:24. There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the spirit. For the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death-Ro 8:1,2.
For we must all appear before the Judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad-2 Cor 5:10.
WE [CHRISTIAN BELIEVERS] SHALL ALL STAND BEFORE THE JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST (or God’s judgment seat). FOR IT IS WRITTEN, AS I LIVE, SAITH THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME, AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL CONFESS TO GOD. SO THEN EVERY ONE OF US SHALL GIVE (an) ACCOUNT OF HIMSELF TO GOD-Romans 14:10-12.
THEREFORE THE UNGODLY SHALL NOT STAND IN THE JUDGMENT-Ps 1:5. FOR THE TIME IS COME THAT JUDGMENT MUST BEGIN AT THE HOUSE OF GOD: AND IF IT FIRST BEGIN AT US, WHAT SHALL THE END BE OF THEM THAT OBEY NOT THE GOSPEL OF GOD? AND IF THE RIGHTEOUS SCARCELY BE SAVED, WHERE SHALL THE UNGODLY AND THE SINNER APPEAR?-1 Peter 4:17,18.
Finally, know this, HEREIN IS OUR LOVE MADE PERFECT, THAT WE MAY HAVE BOLDNESS IN THE DAY OF JUDGMENT: BECAUSE AS HE IS, SO ARE WE IN THIS WORLD-1 Jn 4:17.
Note the words, in 1 Cor 5:5-THAT THE SPIRIT MAY BE SAVED IN THE DAY OF THE LORD JESUS.

2 Cor 1:14-AS ALSO YE HAVE ACKNOWLEDGED US IN PART, THAT WE ARE YOUR REJOICING, EVEN AS YE ALSO ARE OURS IN THE DAY OF THE LORD JESUS.

The day of the Lord Jesus is considered, by many, to be the Rapture.

3-WHEN WILL THE JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST COME?

MARVEL NOT AT THIS: FOR THE HOUR IS COMING, IN THE WHICH ALL THAT ARE IN THE GRAVES SHALL HEAR HIS VOICE, AND (they) SHALL COME FORTH; THEY THAT HAVE DONE GOOD, UNTO THE RESURRECTION OF LIFE-Jn 5:28,29. It appears that this judgment shall be held at the time of the resurrection and Rapture.
IF A MAN DIE, SHALL HE LIVE AGAIN? ALL THE DAYS OF MY APPOINTED TIME WILL I WAIT, TILL MY CHANGE COME-Job 14:14. For IT IS APPOINTED UNTO MEN ONCE TO DIE, BUT AFTER THIS THE JUDGMENT-Heb 9:27.

4-JESUS SHALL JUDGE

It is written, AND HE COMMANDED US TO PREACH UNTO THE PEOPLE, AND TO TESTIFY THAT IT IS HE (Jesus) WHICH WAS ORDAINED OF GOD TO BE THE JUDGE OF QUICK (the living) AND DEAD-Acts 10:42. BECAUSE HE HATH APPOINTED A DAY, IN THE WHICH HE (Jesus) WILL JUDGE THE WORLD IN RIGHTEOUSNESS BY THAT MAN WHOM HE HATH ORDAINED; WHEREOF HE HATH GIVEN ASSURANCE UNTO ALL MEN, IN THAT HE HATH RAISED HIM FROM THE DEAD-Acts 17:31.
IN THE DAY WHEN GOD SHALL JUDGE THE SECRETS OF MEN BY JESUS CHRIST-Ro 2:16.

5-WHAT SHALL JUDGE US?

The judgment shall be ACCORDING TO MY GOSPEL-Ro 2:16. The Bible, God's Word, the Law of liberty, will judge us at the judgment.
SO SPEAK YE, AND SO DO, AS THEY THAT SHALL BE JUDGED BY THE LAW OF LIBERTY-Ja 2:12.

6-WHY DO THE BORN-AGAIN APPEAR BEFORE THIS JUDGMENT?

It is written, THAT EVERY ONE MAY RECEIVE THE THINGS DONE IN HIS BODY, ACCORDING TO THAT HE HATH DONE, WHETHER IT BE GOOD OR BAD-2 Cor 5:10.

7-WHAT SHALL BE JUDGED?

FOR GOD SHALL BRING EVERY WORK INTO JUDGMENT, WITH EVERY SECRET THING, WHETHER IT BE GOOD, OR WHETHER IT BE EVIL-Ecc 12:14.

8-NOTHING SHALL BE HID

FOR NOTHING IS SECRET, THAT SHALL NOT BE MADE MANIFEST; NEITHER ANY THING HID, THAT SHALL NOT BE KNOWN AND COME ABROAD-Lk 8:17. FOR THERE IS NOTHING COVERED, THAT SHALL NOT BE REVEALED; NEITHER HID, THAT SHALL NOT BE KNOWN-Lk 12:2. FOR THERE IS NOTHING COVERED, THAT SHALL NOT BE REVEALED; AND HID, THAT SHALL NOT BE KNOWN-Mt 10:26.
THEREFORE JUDGE NOTHING BEFORE THE TIME, UNTIL THE LORD COME, WHO BOTH WILL BRING TO LIGHT THE HIDDEN THINGS OF DARKNESS, AND WILL MAKE MANIFEST (or make known) THE COUNSELS OF THE HEARTS: AND THEN SHALL EVERY MAN HAVE PRAISE OF GOD-1 Cor 4:5. For NOTHING IN ALL CREATION IS HIDDEN FROM GOD'S SIGHT. EVERYTHING IS UNCOVERED AND LAID BARE BEFORE THE EYES OF HIM TO WHOM WE MUST GIVE ACCOUNT-Heb 4:13 NIV.
In addition, know this, THAT EVERY IDLE WORD THAT MEN SHALL SPEAK, THEY SHALL GIVE ACCOUNT THEREOF IN THE DAY OF JUDGMENT-Mt 12:36.
Note: Nothing is secret. Nothing is hid. Everything shall be made known. All hidden things will be made known, even the thoughts of the heart. All things will be uncovered and open, and we will have to give an account. Even every idle word we speak, we will have to give an account for them.

9-EVEN WHAT YOU HAVE SPOKEN IN SECRET SHALL BE PROCLAIMED OPENLY

THEREFORE WHATSOEVER YE HAVE SPOKEN IN DARKNESS SHALL BE HEARD IN THE LIGHT; AND THAT WHICH YE HAVE SPOKEN IN THE EAR IN CLOSETS SHALL BE PROCLAIMED UPON THE HOUSETOPS-Lk 12:3. Consider, the most secret things you have ever spoken, which no one may know about, even these shall be proclaimed.


10-REWARDS---ACCORDING TO WHAT WE DID, WE SHALL RECEIVE REWARDS OR SUFFER LOSS OF REWARDS

Jesus receives the reward of the "precious fruit of the earth," the saints. It is written, BEHOLD, THE HUSBANDMAN WAITETH FOR THE PRECIOUS FRUIT OF THE EARTH, AND HATH LONG PATIENCE FOR IT, UNTIL HE RECEIVE THE EARLY AND LATTER RAIN-Ja 5:7.
According to what the saints do, they shall receive or lose rewards. It is written, I THE LORD SEARCH THE HEART, I TRY THE REINS, EVEN TO GIVE EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS WAYS, AND ACCORDING TO THE FRUIT OF HIS DOINGS-Jere 17:10. God searches the heart; then, according to our ways and the fruit of our doings, we shall receive rewards.
TAKE HEED THEREFORE HOW YE HEAR: FOR WHOSOEVER HATH, TO HIM SHALL BE GIVEN-Lk 8:18. Each person is given a certain number of talents. Some will be good and faithful servants and will multiply what has been given to them. At the judgment, they will be rewarded according to what they have.
For EVERY MAN'S WORK SHALL BE MADE MANIFEST (or shown for what it is-NIV): FOR THE DAY SHALL DECLARE IT, BECAUSE IT SHALL BE REVEALED BY FIRE; AND THE FIRE SHALL TRY (or test) EVERY MAN'S WORK OF WHAT SORT IT IS (or will test the quality of each man's work-NIV). IF ANY MAN'S WORK ABIDE (or survives) WHICH HE HATH BUILT THEREUPON, HE SHALL RECEIVE A REWARD. IF ANY MAN'S WORK SHALL BE BURNED, HE SHALL SUFFER LOSS: BUT HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; YET SO AS BY FIRE (but only as one escaping through the flames-NIV)-1 Cor 3:13-15. What a waste, as some shall suffer a loss of rewards for eternity. Consider, there will be people at the judgment who will find that so much of what they did was of the flesh and not of God. It was of the world and not the Spirit. They shall have the great joy of being with Jesus forever; nevertheless, the rewards they might have had for eternity were lost as much of their works did not stand the test of fire.
Therefore, take heed, FOR HE THAT SOWETH TO HIS FLESH SHALL OF THE FLESH REAP CORRUPTION; BUT HE THAT SOWETH TO THE SPIRIT SHALL OF THE SPIRIT REAP LIFE EVERLASTING-Gal 6:8. Also, as already noted, EVERY IDLE WORD THAT MEN SHALL SPEAK, THEY SHALL GIVE ACCOUNT THEREOF IN THE DAY OF JUDGMENT-Mt 12:36.
For it is written, AND HE SAID UNTO THEM, TAKE HEED WHAT YE HEAR: WITH WHAT MEASURE YE METE (or use) (what you hear), IT SHALL BE MEASURED TO YOU (and even more); AND UNTO YOU THAT HEAR SHALL MORE BE GIVEN. FOR HE THAT HATH, TO HIM SHALL BE GIVEN: AND HE THAT HATH NOT, FROM HIM SHALL BE TAKEN EVEN THAT WHICH HE HATH-Mk 4:24,25. WHOSOEVER HATH NOT, FROM HIM SHALL BE TAKEN EVEN THAT WHICH HE SEEMETH TO HAVE-Lk 8:18. Again, we note there will be a gain for some, but a loss for others. Beware of what you hear: for according to the amount you use (or what you hear), you shall receive that much more again; but if you do not use what you hear, even that which you have shall be taken away from you. It might be said, to you that are given knowledge and use it, you shall be given more; but to you that are given knowledge and do not use it, what you have shall be taken away.
It is written, WHOSOEVER THEREFORE SHALL BREAK ONE OF THESE LEAST COMMANDMENTS, AND SHALL TEACH MEN SO, HE SHALL BE CALLED "THE LEAST" IN THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN-Mt 5:19. Again, we appear to have a loss of rewards for those that break a least commandment and teach others to do the same.


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God bless,

Stever

 2005/8/13 11:31
letsgetbusy
Member



Joined: 2004/9/28
Posts: 957
Cleveland, Georgia

 Re:

"Has anyone considered that perhaps such timelessness in eternity can help explain something like the judgment? When a person dies, perhaps they "awaken" in eternity -- where all of human history has been finished and passed away. A person may die, and then open their eyes to discover that eternity has passed by -- and they are again with even those who died after them, getting ready to be judged. To them, it seemed only a second. But in the reality of eternity, earthly time has passed away."

Stever, I think you're onto something here. I haven't read all your details yet, but I have been trying to tell people that concept before, but with the freewill/predestination debate.

Concerning the concept of existance, in our realm vs. God's realm, Paul, John, etc, were out of their body, when they saw things that they came back and wrote of. They were not encased in time when they saw these things.

So I think we should study to figure out which kingdom the perspective is from when we are studying a verse:

man's: within time and history

or

God's: outside of time and history

I posted about this before and it seemed like people thought it was a little "too literal":

1 John 4:12a "No man hath seen God at any time."

Rev 10:6b "there should be time no longer"


_________________
Hal Bachman

 2005/8/13 11:57Profile





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