SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Image Map
Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : But after this the....

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 Next Page )
PosterThread
PreachParsly
Member



Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 But after this the....

Judgement. I would like to get start a study on Judgment and the final estate of the wicked.

Here are a few questions to start it off.

How many times are we judged? Great White Throne, Judgement Seat of Christ.. Are they different?

When? Imediately after death or at one time which is appointed by God?

Is Hell [Hades] the final estate of the wicked or the lake of fire? Are those 2 different?

Sorry if I posted too many questions. I just thought I would post most of what came to mind, but lets try to start with the first question.

I hope everyone participates. :-)


_________________
Josh Parsley

 2005/8/10 15:23Profile









 Re: But after this the....

Isn't there a difference between the final estate of the wicked and 'us'?

The great white throne has come up in other forums, and there seems to be a doctrine that Christians won't be there. I have trouble with this for two reasons - the dividing of the sheep and the goats, (Matt 25:31 - 46) and, the presence of the book of life, here:

Revelation 20
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: [b]and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life[/b]: and [u]the dead[/u] were judged out of those things which were written in [u]the books[/u], [i]according to their works[/i].

 2005/8/10 16:25
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

How many times are we judged?
Once:
"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad." (II Corinthians 5:10).

Great White Throne, Judgement Seat of Christ.. Are they different?

I could be wrong (has happened before) but I see that they are the same thing. I can recall also in Daniel 7:
9 "As I kept watching,
thrones were set in place,
and the Ancient of Days took His seat.
His clothing was white like snow,
and the hair of His head like whitest wool.
His throne was flaming fire;
its wheels were blazing fire. 10 A river of fire was flowing,
coming out from His presence.
Thousands upon thousands served Him;
ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him.
The court was convened,
and the books were opened.

I take these three accounts to be the same event.

When? Imediately after death or at one time which is appointed by God?

One Time. But I don't know for certain.

Is Hell [Hades] the final estate of the wicked or the lake of fire? Are those 2 different?

Ghenna is Hell. It is where the rich man went in the Lazarus story told by Christ. Sheol is the place where Lazarus went (to be with Abraham). Two different places. I say that because in Revelation 20 says:
11 Then I saw a great white throne and One seated on it. Earth and heaven fled from His presence, and no place was found for them. 12 I also saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life, and the dead were judged according to their works by what was written in the books. 13 Then the sea gave up its dead, and Death and Hades gave up their dead; all were judged according to their works. 14 Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And anyone not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

My interpretation is that Death (Sheol) and Hades (Gheanna) will give up their dead. The dead are judged according to their works and if their names are written in the book of Life. People in the Book of Life go to heaven, if not they go to the Lake of Fire. The places Death and Hell are then cast into the lake of fire as well.

The lake of fire is the final destination for all that do not accept Jesus.

Also, a side note, I believe that the "books that are opened" along with the Book of life is the Law of God (The Commandments). These will be used by God to determine how "good" a person was and thus they will all be condemned.

These are my beliefs. I don't expect anyone else to agree with me 100% and I am always open to learn more...and if I am wrong...change to what is right.

 2005/8/10 16:41Profile









 Re: But after this the...

Thought it is worth mentioning these here, to help keep perspective.

1 Corinthians 11
31 For [b]if[/b] we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
32 [u]But when we [i]are[/i] judged[/u], we are chastened of the Lord, [b]that we should not be condemned with the world[/b].

Matthew 16:26
For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?
or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

Matthew 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Luke 1:50
And [b]his mercy [is] on them that fear him[/b] from generation to generation.

 2005/8/10 17:21
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4499


 Re: But after this the....

Hi PreacherParsly...!

This is a great topic for discussion. I currently believe that there is only one judgment. I'll look up some Scriptures and post back more for discussion later!

Thanks for starting this thread!

:-)


_________________
Christopher

 2005/8/10 18:02Profile









 Re:

Quote:

ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
Hi PreacherParsly...!

This is a great topic for discussion. I currently believe that there is only one judgment. I'll look up some Scriptures and post back more for discussion later!

Thanks for starting this thread!
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Stever's response:

I agree Brother, there is only one judgment for the Christian--the Bema seat of Jesus Christ for rewards:

1 Cor 3:
8. Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
9. For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
10. According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13. Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

The reason for my belief is above when it says that the Bema judgment seat is a judgment for rewards and all those that go through it are saved:
14. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward (Gold, Silver & Precious Stones).
15. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss (wood hay and stubble): BUT HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; yet so as by fire.

All of the things that he(the believer) didn't do for Christ's glory will be burnt before his eyes as wood, hay and stubble. Those things that he did for Christ's glory he will receive a reward for, but either way he is saved!

On the other hand, at the Great White Throne Judgment the Books are opened, the Law and the Lambs Book of Life. Each man that goes to this judgment is judged by the law. His life is weighed in the balance with God's requirements, the law. Unless he/she satisfied them all, 100% of the time he/she is found guilty!

Since he/she did not trust Jesus and believe in his death and resurrection, and worship Him as LORD, he cannot be saved and is now described, is now labeled, by the sins he committed during his life by thought or deed- as a fornicator, adulterer, effemenite, etc. etc. etc.

At least,that is the way that I see it. None of them (at the Great White Throne) are written in the Lambs Book of Life, and none of them followed the law, by thought or deed, ever. It is an impossibility. Jesus Christ, the God Man is the only one who ever kept the law.

One thing that happens at the Great White Throne is that every knee will bow to Jesus as LORD before they are damned to Hell.[The Christians knees are already bowed to Jesus Christ] The have lived their life and have trusted in their own works to be saved. After this judgment they all know that Christ is the only one that could ever follow the law, ever and that they have failed.

God bless,

Stever

 2005/8/10 19:56









 Re: But after this the....

Hi Stever,

On grounds of pure English analysis, I don't know how you can suggest that we will be rewarded with 'gold, silver, precious stones'. The original temple was inlaid with 'gold, silver, precious stones'. They were part of the fabric of the building, placed there to glorify God. We are being built into a living temple, in which God Himself can dwell. WE ARE THE Gold, Silver, Precious Stones which help to show off His glory, and Peter puts the whole 'stone' picture in perspective with the rest of the New Testament, including Paul and Jesus, which also calls on Old Testament prophecy.

We are also promised in several places in the OT, to be jewels in His crown, again picking up on the 'jewel' picture. This is echoed by Spurgeon in a post I made in the Lounge, (Keep on keeping on) where he says a well-tried saint becomes like a glittering diamond in His crown.

This follows the thought in 1 Peter 1 that we must be tried (as by fire) to show forth our like precious faith with Him. This is how we become purer - in the refiner's fire - gold or silver, and precious stones are formed by slow pressure in the depth of the earth - buried.

1 Peter 2 (KJV)
4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
5 [u]Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house[/u], an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, [u]I lay in Sion a chief corner stone[/u], elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.


1 Corinthians 3 (Young's Literal Translation)
10 According to the grace of God that was given to me, as a wise master-builder, a foundation I have laid, and another doth build on [it],
11 for other foundation no one is able to lay except that which is laid, which is Jesus the Christ;
12 and [u]if any one doth build[/u] [b]upon this foundation[/b] [u]gold, silver, precious stones[/u], wood, hay, straw-- 13 [i]of each the work shall [u]become manifest[/u], for the day shall declare it, [u]because in fire it is revealed[/u], and the work of each, what kind it is, the fire shall prove;
14 if of any one the work doth remain that he[/i] [u]built on it[/u], a wage he shall receive;
15 if of any the work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; and himself shall be saved, but so as through fire.


This makes the most sense in the overall context of the concepts. The fire will show that what is not burnt up is already refined. That's what 'prove' means. The gold, silver and precious stones will survive the flames.

JaySaved quoted

"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad." (II Corinthians 5:10).

The incentive here, is to cease from sin.

1 Peter 4:1
Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, [b]arm yourselves likewise with the same mind[/b]: [u]for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin[/u];
2 That he no longer should live the rest of [his] time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

 2005/8/11 7:19
letsgetbusy
Member



Joined: 2004/9/28
Posts: 957
Cleveland, Georgia

 Re:

I believe the Corinthians judgement, The Judgement Seat of Christ will happen, and then this from Revelation 20:

[4] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
[5] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.


[11] And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
[12] And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
[13] And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
[14] And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
[15] And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

This is your interpretation of course, but I read from verse 5 that God's elect will be reigning with him during the judgement of the unsaved dead.

As best I can tell, Stever's comments on the judgement of Christians will have already occured before the judgement of the unsaved dead. It seems some of the elect will be judging the dead. I'm not sure if all the elect will judge or not. I'm open for Scriptures that cover that. I take it from 1 Cor 6 that we will all judge the fallen angels:

"Know ye not that we shall judge angels?."

Come Lord Jesus.


_________________
Hal Bachman

 2005/8/11 16:23Profile
PreachParsly
Member



Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

Don't the believers have to be judged before the 1000 year reign? If we reign with Him, isn't there going to be some over more cities than others? Or do you (whoever) interperate that parable (Luke 19)all figuritive?

I guess before that my question would be who does what in the 1000 year reign? Are tribulation saints different in this setting(Rev 20:4-6) from saints of old or of today?


_________________
Josh Parsley

 2005/8/11 17:16Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re:

Sister Dorcas quoted:

Quote:
32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.



In Psalms 119 we hear of judgements that come from the Lord in the way of day to day corrections according to the Holy Spirit. I believe the Scripture above speaks to the same precept found in Psalms 119.

Psa. 119:7 I will praise You with uprightness of heart,
When I learn Your righteous judgments.

Psa. 119:13 With my lips I have declared
All the judgments of Your mouth.

Psa. 119:20 My soul breaks with longing
For Your judgments at all times.

Psa. 119:30 I have chosen the way of truth;
Your judgments I have laid before me.

Psa. 119:39 Turn away my reproach which I dread,
For Your judgments are good.

Psa. 119:52 I remembered Your judgments of old, O LORD,
And have comforted myself.

Psa. 119:62 At midnight I will rise to give thanks to You,
Because of Your righteous judgments.

Psa. 119:66 Teach me good judgment and knowledge,
For I believe Your commandments.

Psa. 119:75 I know, O LORD, that Your judgments are right,
And that in faithfulness You have afflicted me.

Psa. 119:84 How many are the days of Your servant?
When will You execute judgment on those who persecute me?

Psa. 119:102 I have not departed from Your judgments,
For You Yourself have taught me.

Psa. 119:106 I have sworn and confirmed
That I will keep Your righteous judgments.

Psa. 119:108 Accept, I pray, the freewill offerings of my mouth, O LORD,
And teach me Your judgments.

Psa. 119:120 My flesh trembles for fear of You,
And I am afraid of Your judgments.

Psa. 119:137 Righteous are You, O LORD,
And upright are Your judgments.

Psa. 119:156 Great are Your tender mercies, O LORD;
Revive me according to Your judgments.

Psa. 119:160 The entirety of Your word is truth,
And every one of Your righteous judgments endures forever.

Psa. 119:164 Seven times a day I praise You,
Because of Your righteous judgments.

Psa. 119:175 Let my soul live, and it shall praise You;
And let Your judgments help me.

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2005/8/11 18:05Profile





©2002-2020 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Privacy Policy