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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Rivers of Living Water

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saved_matt
Member



Joined: 2005/7/3
Posts: 233
Lancashire, England

 Rivers of Living Water

right we'll start with John 7:37-39

In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, [b]out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit[/b], which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

now I have heard this verse used as advocating the origin of the gift of tounges within a believer baptised with the Holy Spirit, what i mean by that is if it dont well up from within you, kinda like a spiritual geyser, but you just kind of see words in your head then that gift of tongues is not from God but counterfeit.

However and this is something I've been toying with in my head for a while if we look at John's subsequent descripition of the rivers of living water, he is only speaking about the Holy Spirit as given at the point of salvation.

My question then can be summed up as 'are the rivers of living water in John 7:38 tongues or just a general release of the Holy Sprit within a believer?'

By the term general release of the Holy Spirit, i refer to any manifestation of the Holy Spirit within a believer, whether it be on fire preaching, prophesying, tongues, extra ordinary acts of kindness, mercy etc.. (of course i'm not limiting manifestations of God moving through a christian merely to the spiritual gifts of 1 Corinthians 12:7-11).

To carry on then let's look at a few scriptures from:1 Corinthians 14

verse 6
Now, brethren, [b]if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you,[/b] except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?

verse 19
Yet in the church [b]I had rather speak five words with my understanding,[/b] that by my voice I might teach others also, [b]than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.[/b]

to me here Paul is almost saying tongues is the least of the spiritual gifts, lesser than prophesy anyway 1 Cor 14:5 (by lesser of course i mean less useful to the edification of the church).

To sum up then i doesn't seem to me that the rivers of living water of John 7:38 can be tongues only, due to Paul's description in 1 Cor 14, but the rivers of living water are more a general release of the Spirit as defined above.

thoughts?


_________________
matt

 2005/8/5 6:03Profile
Manfred
Member



Joined: 2005/4/4
Posts: 342
Continental Europe

 Re: Rivers of Living Water

Quote:
However and this is something I've been toying with in my head for a while if we look at John's subsequent descripition of the rivers of living water, he is only speaking about the Holy Spirit as given at the point of salvation.



Hi Matt,

Just a little remark. We are baptised in the Spirit at the moment of our conversion, there are no so-called baptism of the Spirit after being born from above. In fact the new birth is, in a way, receiving God's life in us, and this life is none other that the Spirit of life - the Spirit of God.

This whole issue of Spirit baptism is in great confusion because of this.

These rivers, I think are expressions of the life of God in us. It doesn't point necessarily to "manifestations", but in things like prayer, worship, speaking, etc.

Manfred

 2005/8/5 6:13Profile
saved_matt
Member



Joined: 2005/7/3
Posts: 233
Lancashire, England

 Re:

Hey Manfred

Quote:
This whole issue of Spirit baptism is in great confusion because of this.



Very true, this is the reason for my quick respose because i would prefer it if this thread did not turn into a discussion on when we are baptised in the Holy Spirit but rather to stick to an analysis of the 'rivers of living water'.

I do agree with your point about the rivers being expressions of the life of God in us. like i said:
Quote:
By the term general release of the Holy Spirit, i refer to any manifestation of the Holy Spirit within a believer, whether it be on fire preaching, prophesying, tongues, extra ordinary acts of kindness, mercy etc..



to this could be added things like prayer, worship, speaking, i didn't mean my list to be exhaustive.

in Christ

matt


_________________
matt

 2005/8/5 6:36Profile









 Re:

Manfred,

You know that I am new here, so I have a question.

Is what you've posted, the view of the Site itself, as in the Moderators and Admin.s ?

Would be helpful for me to know.

Thanks Manfred.

Annie

 2005/8/5 7:14
Manfred
Member



Joined: 2005/4/4
Posts: 342
Continental Europe

 Re:

Annie,

What I wrote is what I think - it's how I see it personally.

Manfred

 2005/8/5 7:19Profile
letsgetbusy
Member



Joined: 2004/9/28
Posts: 957
Cleveland, Georgia

 Re: Rivers of Living Water

This is not my opinion necessarily, but my experience. I posted this in the "Revival Praying and History" under, "I was baptized by fire!"

If you were to ask people that know me, they would tell you that I am very conservative in theology. I am not quick to believe anything new I hear. I go to a Methodist church, I read the King James, I believe in using the law in evangelism on the street. But yesterday was not an experience that would want to make me sing, "He Touched Me." It was more like, "The Clensing Fire of God Almighty is Moving Right Through Me!" (even though the second is not a song).

I was soundly saved three years ago, and have begun to work in the ministry this year, but what happened to me yesterday doesn't fit into any theological expansion I've ever heard. It was the awesome power of the Spirit of the majestic, soveriegn God of the universe!

So my brothers, I would have said a year ago that all the movement of the Holy Spirit in the New Testament is talking about salvation. There is more, my brothers, there is more.

If the Spirit only works salvation, what caused those 1800 people to fall unconcious during John Wesley's sermon?(1) What caused hundreds of people to gather at Duncan Campbell's church at almost midnight?(2) What caused men to shred hymnbooks during William Booth's services and their noses to drip with sweat during the preaching of W.P. Nicholson?(3) God the Holy Ghost was there.

(1)from Ten Shekels and a Shirt, Paris Reidhead
(2)from Revival Hymn
(3)from Ravenhill video interview, A Man of God

I believe that what John Baptist was talking about in Luke 3:16 is so much more that what 99% of our church believes it to be. In the OT, God send a consuming fire on a proper sacrifice, I say he did the same to John Baptist, and the same in Acts when 3000 people were saved. Think of the ability of the God Almighty and what He is capable of. His power had not been seen in so long, not because He's gone, He's not even sick. It is because His people, us, have been so rebellious.

How many of us are really getting on our face and praying for a movement to God? How many of us go to church every Sunday but KNOW there is something God is capable of that we haven't seen? How many of us must "entertain" ourselves because we have no true experience of God? Brothers, it is either revival, or humanism's reign.

"If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land."


_________________
Hal Bachman

 2005/8/5 8:37Profile









 Re:Rivers of Living Water

Letsgetbusy:

This is not my opinion necessarily, but my experience. I posted this in the "Revival Praying and History" under, "I was baptized by fire!"

If the Spirit only works salvation, what caused those 1800 people to fall unconcious during John Wesley's sermon?(1) What caused hundreds of people to gather at Duncan Campbell's church at almost midnight?(2) What caused men's noses to drip with sweat under conviction during William Booth's services?(3)

(1)from Ten Shekels and a Shirt, Paris Reidhead
(2)from Revival Hymn
(3)from Ravenhill video interview, A Man of God

I believe that what John Baptist was talking about in Luke 3:16 is so much more that what 99% of our church believes it to be. In the OT, God send a consuming fire on a proper sacrifice, I say he did the same to John Baptist, and the same in Acts when 3000 people were saved. Think of the ability of the God Almighty and what He is capable of. His power had not been seen in so long, not because He's gone, He's not even sick. It is because His people, us, have been so rebellious.

Manfred:

Just a little remark. We are baptised in the Spirit at the moment of our conversion, there are no so-called baptism of the Spirit after being born from above. In fact the new birth is, in a way, receiving God's life in us, and this life is none other that the Spirit of life - the Spirit of God.

This whole issue of Spirit baptism is in great confusion because of this.

These rivers, I think are expressions of the life of God in us. It doesn't point necessarily to "manifestations", but in things like prayer, worship, speaking, etc.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Stevers conclusion:

There you have it, encapsulated above. The two views of the baptism of the Holy Spirit, the “Promise of the Father” promised to us by Jesus. One view is from someone who has experienced this baptism, this baptism by Fire, and it has changed his life. The other view is from a believer who has not experienced this baptism.

And the battle goes on. It is almost impossible to explain this baptism that empowers the believer to witness to the lost to other Christians. After actually receiving this baptism it is easy to see that we receive two baptisms. The first baptism takes place at the moment of belief and it’s purpose is to put the believer into the body of Christ. The Promise of the Father, the Baptism of Fire is a separate baptism( that only sometimes takes place at the same time as the first Baptism) and the purpose of this baptism is to empower the believer to witness.

God bless,

Stever



 2005/8/5 14:32
GaryE
Member



Joined: 2005/4/26
Posts: 376
Mifflinburg, Pennsylvania

 Re:


My position on this discussion is that you are sealed with the Spirit when you are born again. Most people are baptized with in the Spirit with the power of witness at a later date. Many people witness without the power and demonstration of the Holy Spirit and it goes nowhere. If you say you have all of God then you aren't going to seek more of him and you won't ask for more of the Holy Spirit in your life because you think you already have all you are going to get. Luke 11:1-13 Ask and it shall be given unto you. It's not by the letter but by the Spirit. You have not because you ask not.

With my position, the disciples were saved and believing Jesus was the resurrected Lord before they received the gift of the Holy Spirit and power. They were to wait for this promise of power then they would be witnesses unto him. Luke 24:40 On the day of Pentecost not only Peter received the gift but all those in the upper room. Joel 2:28+29 with Acts 2:16-18

In Christ,
GaryE


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Gary Eckenroth

 2005/8/5 17:09Profile
Apprehended
Member



Joined: 2005/7/29
Posts: 10


 Re: Rivers of Living Water

Early in Yeshua’s ministry…
38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
John 7:38-39

Shortly before Yeshua offered Himself up…
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
John 14:16-18


After His resurrection…
21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
John 20:21-22

At least eight days later at His ascension…
4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
Acts 1:4-9

 2005/8/6 9:19Profile
letsgetbusy
Member



Joined: 2004/9/28
Posts: 957
Cleveland, Georgia

 Re:

Stever, you are right on the mark. I probably would have argued the other way even maybe a week ago. For the rest of you, I am telling you that I was already saved, evangelizing, reading Scripture, praying, studying revival, etc. But I am telling you that God the Holy Ghost came down upon me. It wasn't a spiritual high. It was the power of God Almighty. It felt like my blood vessels were going to explode.

You say whatever you want, but I met God. That's what happened during the old revivals. Unless you have read, heard or studied the accounts, you won't understand until you do. There is salvation and there is an invasion of the Holy Ghost. Don't argue with me, listen carefully to Ravenhill's words in his video interview. Argue with Jonathan Edwards, argue with John Wesley, argue with William Booth. I say this only to get you to understand that there is something beyond salvation. It is called revival.

"My dear people do you good folk understand what revival means? Have you a conception of what it means to see God working?
The God of miracles.
Sovereign, supernatural.
Moving in the midst of men and hundreds swept into the Kingdom.
Oh that we might see it, that we might see it."

-Duncan Campbell


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Hal Bachman

 2005/8/6 11:01Profile





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