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Mr_Nath
Member



Joined: 2005/2/13
Posts: 20


 Did God give us our conscience or did we steal it?

I received an email from someone who received a Gospel Tract over the weekend. I wrote him an extremely thorough email and was able to answer all the questions he had. He has just emailed back saying that he is a little bit confused. This is what he wrote:

"Thank you for having the time to respond to my letter, but I must admit I am a little confused. You speak of god giving us a conscience, but didn't we in fact steal this from him. Didn't we eat the forbidden fruit and in doing so it allowed us knowledge of wrong? So in fact it is our own initiative that allows us to determine right from wrong and therefore if we remain ignorant then we'll go to heaven anyway..."

Did God give us our conscience, or did it come from the knowledge of good & evil? What is the 'work of the law' mentioned in Rom 2:15? Was God talking about all people when He said He would write His law upon our hearts or is that once you are born-again?

If anyone has an answer to this question it would be greatly appreciated. I am just after a thorough, biblical understanding of this before I respond to his email. It was a good question and one I have never had asked before.

Thank you & God bless you,

Nath.

 2005/8/3 0:38Profile
TiltedHalo
Member



Joined: 2005/7/18
Posts: 57
Brooklyn, USA

 Re: Did God give us our conscience or did we steal it?


[b]Did God give us our conscience, or did it come from the knowledge of good & evil?[/b][i]What is the 'work of the law' mentioned in Rom 2:15? [/i][u]Was God talking about all people when He said He would write His law upon our hearts or is that once you are born-again?[/u][b]Hm. Did God give us a conscience at the initial breath of life? He gave us a powerful mind at conception but did He give us a conscience? I believe we had that conscience in us at conception. Conscious itself was not transfixed in us when we ate from the Tree of Life. I believe it came to life when we disobeyed the Creator, but nevertheless I believe it was always there. A baby, has no real discernment between right & wrong. But a conscience isn't instilled in him when he grows old enough, it is innately there.[/b][i]In Romans 2:15, I believe that it reads: Even though the Mosaic law was not applied to the Pagan Laws of the time, the pagans still honoured certain laws such as caring for the sick & elderly, honoring parents & condemning adultery (NIV Study Bible). These things were written on the hearts of all men. What the Jewish law did for Israel, the moral nature of pagans, enlightened by conscience fucntioned for them. Therefore saying that the natural conscience of the mind bore witness & their thoughts accused.[/i][u]All men =) As the explanation was revealed in the Italics.[/u]

With His Love
-TH


_________________
Arnaldo Santiago, Jnr.

 2005/8/3 0:56Profile









 Re: Did God give us our conscience or did we steal it?

You're going to get the "go-around" with some unbelievers, to distract from the main message of Christ and Him crucified and WHY He was.

But God gave man 'conscience', ALL good things, come from Above. But I don't see where it matters, 'where' it came from ... just that we're in a mess without Christ.

But you could show him these Scriptures.
Rom 2:15 is talking about all men, having a conscience, and in this case, it points to unsaved.
The main message, is they are "Without Excuse" for refusing so great a Salvation.

Rom 1:19 Because that which is known of God is manifest among them, [b]for God did manifest it to them,[/b]
Rom 1:20 for the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world, by the things made being understood, are plainly seen, [b]both His eternal power and Godhead[/b]--to their being inexcusable;
Rom 1:21 [b]because, having known God they did not glorify Him as God[/b], nor gave thanks, but were made vain in their reasonings, and their unintelligent heart was darkened,
Rom 1:22 professing to be wise, they were made fools,
Rom 1:23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into the likeness of an image of corruptible man, and of fowls, and of quadrupeds, and of reptiles.
Rom 1:24 Wherefore also God did give them up, in the desires of their hearts, to uncleanness, to dishonour their bodies among themselves;
Rom 1:25 who did change the truth of God into a falsehood, and did honour and serve the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed to the ages. Amen.

Rom 2:14 For, when nations that have not a law, by nature may do the things of the law, these not having a law--to themselves are a law;
Rom 2:15 who do shew the work of the law [b]written in their hearts[/b], their conscience also witnessing with them, and between one another the thoughts accusing or else defending,
Rom 2:16 in the day when God shall judge the secrets of men, according to my good news, through Jesus Christ.

 2005/8/3 0:58
arbustum
Member



Joined: 2005/7/3
Posts: 96
Sydney Australia

 Re:

...God IS our conscience. it kind of reminds me of the force in star wars. lol, but he's that voice of reason. so often we think that the part satan likes to play in our minds are a part of our conscience aswell, which is totally bogus, satan would love you to think that, it gives him a little more of a say over what you do. so dont give him that satisfaction.


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holly

 2005/8/3 1:59Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
...God IS our conscience


I don't think this is true; it sounds good but doesn't square up to the biblical revelation. Rom. 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom. 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) It is the function of the conscience to 'bear witness' to 'the Witness'. God's Witness is always infallibly right, but the state of our own 'consience' will determine the way in which it responds to God's Witness.

We took a look at
[url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=3122&forum=36&post_id=&refresh=Go]Conscience and the Heart[/url]a little while ago.


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Ron Bailey

 2005/8/3 4:29Profile
arbustum
Member



Joined: 2005/7/3
Posts: 96
Sydney Australia

 Re:

philologos, without using direct verses, there's something ingrained in each person that there has to be so much more to life than this. We all have this concept of 'right and wrong' perhaps it comes from conditioning, because when you're very early on in years 'sexual abuse' means nothing to you, but as we grow we come to realise that there is a right or wrong, even the unsaved realise and work with a 'conscience' so to speak when they work towards 'common sense' i see a lot of people who basically keep the law of the lord but in their hearts there's disconnection, hurt and barricades,

like a preacher from my youth said the other night, there's something in each of us that still holds a vague memory of a perfect garden, a spiritual link through the generations that holds a sentiment of what it was to walk with God every day and actually talk directly to the creator of the universe, just like the inherited curse of the fall. that is, until we accept the fact that he's already paid for that fall in our lives,

philologos i fully respect where you're coming from, im still trying to find a scripture to back myself up, but can i ask you to really feel for what i'm saying before you reply, just talk to the Holy Spirit.

your quote in romans was really enlightening, i cant understand the king james version for the life of me, but i went away and re read the section in the NIV translation, after reading it i'd agree the conscience is a gift.

but i let my conscience be of the Holy Spirit which is God, which brought me to my original conclusion, and since have been calling my conscience a communication method of God's. i don't want to come across asthough i've just accepted everything a preacher has said without chewing the cud but they said something that has just stuck with me and many others that i talk to about this, -the conscience is an in-built alarm system like emotions and physical pain its another instrument to help you navigate this world, its been given to you by God. but i wouldnt mind it if someone would like to clear this one and the next thing up for me:

whats an unsaved person's conscience? is that to say that God doesnt talk to us via the Holy spirit before we are saved? i know the baptism of fire comes after the prayer of repentance but does that mean we can only be subjected to Jesus and God the father outside a relationship with him?


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holly

 2005/8/3 6:19Profile
arbustum
Member



Joined: 2005/7/3
Posts: 96
Sydney Australia

 Re:

hi, dont mind this space, my computer was being a little dumb and i thought the first message didnt go through, this is just an edit to save space...


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holly

 2005/8/3 6:23Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Interesting thought about stealing a conscience from God at the Garden of Eden. Eating the fruit from the tree of knowledge of Good and Evil.

In Genesis 2, we see many trees made, but only two described:

8 The Lord God planted a garden in Eden, in the east, and there He placed the man He had formed. 9 The Lord God caused to grow out of the ground every tree pleasing in appearance and good for food, including the tree of life in the midst of the garden, as well as the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

God gives specific instructions concerning the trees and the fruits they bear:

16 And the Lord God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree of the garden, 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for on the day you eat from it, you will certainly die."

As we know, Adam and Eve both ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil therefore defying the commands of God. Is it possible to say that this is where the conscience comes from? Sounds possible...what are some other thoughts on this?

The main point though is that we DO have a conscience and the conscience convicts us on a moral level. It bears witness against or for us and it leaves us without an excuse before God.

 2005/8/3 10:07Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re: Did God give us our conscience or did we steal it?

Can we all agree that our heart could be our conscience?

If so...
1John 3:19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.
:20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
:21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, [then] have we confidence toward God.

This is saying our hearts can be wrong. Lets not forget,
Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

I am just saying that our conscience should be tought rightly in order for it to be of good use.

By the way, I agree with philologos

Quote:
It is the function of the conscience to 'bear witness' to 'the Witness'. God's Witness is always infallibly right, but the state of our own 'consience' will determine the way in which it responds to God's Witness.

 2005/8/3 17:22Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
philologos i fully respect where you're coming from, im still trying to find a scripture to back myself up, but can i ask you to really feel for what i'm saying before you reply, just talk to the Holy Spirit.

This sounds as if I am doing something different to what you suggest. What do you think I am doing? :-)


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Ron Bailey

 2005/8/4 10:36Profile





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