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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Getting along with our Gifts.

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 Re:

The song "How beautiful, is The Body of Christ", kept running through my head, as I was cruisin' here.

I ask a question on a thread, and Pop, here comes a Member, to answer my question.

How beautiful how the Body can work together.

Made these verses come back to my mind again.

And realized just then, that it was Pauls Intro verses to what he was about to say, about the gifts to the Body, and how they work "together" to make a "whole" and to make "us" whole.
NEAT !


1Co 12:14 For the body is not one member, but many.
1Co 12:15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
1Co 12:16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
1Co 12:17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
1Co 12:18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
1Co 12:19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?
1Co 12:20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.
1Co 12:21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
1Co 12:22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:
1Co 12:23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honorable, upon these we bestow more abundant honor; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.

 2005/8/5 2:42
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Jimmy writes:

Quote:
Where is this notion found in Scriptures that differing giftings will sometimes cause people to butt heads with eachother e.g mercy in conflict with the prophetic?


Annie writes:
Quote:
Welllllllll, King Jimmy, Was Paul gifted ? and was Barnabas gifted ???But how many times do you see him messed with by brethren and didn't even all of Asia forsake Paul ? Were there none there with the gifts ?


There is a logic mismatch here. Based on Annie's earlier post Jimmy is asking 'where does scripture indicate that different gifts CAUSE conflict?' Annie's answer is that 'people with different gifts MAY COME into conflict'.

The latter is absolutely true but it does not answer Jimmy's question.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/8/5 4:41Profile









 Re:

Philo ~

I had mentioned to Jonathan about reading "the heart" of the person's post, rather than the "words" ... I keep bringing it back to, 'WHY' I wrote this, all through page one, and that can be seen, by those "with eyes to see".

What 'really' is your problem with me Philo ?

If you can't read or pick up on the "heart" of my purpose in my writing My First Post here ... and just want to knit pick my post, as you wanted to on Jonathan's thread ... and lose the "heart" of Jonathan's thread also ... then you're problem is with me, because you are being blinded to the "intent" and would rather grasp at straws, to the intent to distract from the "intent" of my answers here and to Jonathan.

If you could read with your heart or spirit and not with some hidden contention for some one who was trying to bring a message of peace between us all, as His Body, and when I strictly directed Jonathan to Christ and His Spirit of Truth, yet you strain to find fault in content, rather than see what possibilities there could be, if we SOUGHT CHRIST FIRST AND THEN LOVED EACH OTHER & TO RESPECT EACH OTHER IN THIS THREAD ... then you are saying that BOTH concepts are Wrong and that we should just contend in the Greek (as I said was trivial in my post to Jonathan), over seeking Christ alone, and then here, to bud in for KingJimmy, instead of allow him to respond for himself to my post to him, just says one thing to me and possibly others... your contention is with me, for you to go to this extent.

Seek the ways of Peace. And do good to all, Especially "the household of faith".

These "conflicts of burdens" happen in the Church and you are just looking to cause debate and remove any attempts here to understand and make room for each other's burdens.

This and your wanting a debate on Jonathan's thread, was and is not in the best interest of "the whole" of His Body, and "being full of debate" is not a positive characteristic, of a member of His Body.

I would recommend a re-reading of every post I've made, or that I was forced to make to explain my First, on this thread and ask God, if you will, to show you the "heart" of what was 'trying' to be said.

That's all I can ask you to do.

Other wise, I see you jumping in again behind me to cause debate for the sake of debate only, and that is not the direction we should go, Scripturally.

And whatever KingJimmy has in mind, after he reads my response, written to him, is his decision.

The "Annie says" and "Annie's response" is the type terminology (2nd person type),that is used when making a public spectacle of your superior insights, rather than addressing your post to me, as a sister in the Lord.

If Love was put first, in All things ... these type "impersonal" refutations, would not exist on a Site that has been earnestly striving for Unity, Love and Peace between us, who have been given free access to grow here, together as His Body.

How sad.

 2005/8/5 6:57
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
What 'really' is your problem with me Philo ?


Quote:
And whatever KingJimmy has in mind, after he reads my response, written to him, is his decision.


OOps. This took me by surprise. I have no problem with you. But this is a forum not a private conversation. At the last time I looked 254 'views' were marked up against this thread. That makes it pretty plain that this is not personal conversation between two people. The difference is that folks are expected to join in. If I think you are mistaken in a debate I will point it out; I would do the same with any post and I trust others will do the same with me. This is a forum, a market place, so anyone can join in.

Quote:
The "Annie says" and "Annie's response" is the type terminology (2nd person type),that is used when making a public spectacle of your superior insights, rather than addressing your post to me, as a sister in the Lord.

I meant no distrespect by this. It is the format that I have adopted to try to separate out different post-ers in a post of my own. You certainly misjudge me in attributing to myself 'superior insights'. I am sorry if my terminology has offended you; I only adopted it for clarity's sake. Some 'forum' engines actually do this automatically so that a quote has the source post-er already built in. I was just trying to use a similar distinguishing method. In fact in one of my posts I playfully asked if I might call you 'Annie' rather than 'GrannieAnnie' but so far as I am aware you didn't respond to it.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/8/5 14:39Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

There is a logic mismatch here. Based on Annie's earlier post Jimmy is asking 'where does scripture indicate that different gifts CAUSE conflict?' Annie's answer is that 'people with different gifts MAY COME into conflict'.

The latter is absolutely true but it does not answer Jimmy's question.



Indeed. I fail how to see people's different giftings cause conflict. Quite the opposite, I believe Scripture teaches that when people are geniunely operating in the gifts of the Spirit, there is not conflict, but rather, harmony- and it must be harmounious because this is Christ's body we are talking about. Now, if somebody is not functioning correctly, but is out of order, and immature or/and sinful, then one can expect that there would be conflict. But the gifts of the Spirit promote maturity and unity, they build up, not tear down and apart.

We can cite a million Scriptures where believers were in conflict, but that doesn't prove the gifts cause conflict. It simply shows people are conflicted.


_________________
Jimmy H

 2005/8/5 15:33Profile









 Re:

[b][u]The "Heart" and purpose of why I posted this thread .... "Striving for the Beauty of The Workings of The Body, Unity and Mutual Respect of each other's "burdens".[/u]


Quote:
From Post 1 ~

Maybe we should look at the gifts, so we can all appreciate other's more.

Paul continues on, directly from the gifts, to Love again and how to get along. Just as he does in 1Corth. 12-14.

The general feeling, you come away with is, to Respect each other's differing motivational gifts and be open to them. Without thinking that our gift is better than or more important than, someone elses. (12:3)

So goes it with all these gifts. It's what drives them, it's how they see things, they can't understand why others can't see those things 'as they do', but that's why it's important for us to know what our motivational gift or gifts are, and to respect or 'see' in others, what theirs may be, so we'll understand each other better and make room for the expression of their gifts.

And when they go overboard on their gift, to not judge them as 'bad' people, because WE ALL can and do have days when we are not "walking in the Spirit". But don't judge by that ... just because you don't like what someone else is saying or doing (as long as it's not heresy or sin). Maybe you're just not in the Spirit that day ? Maybe tomorrow you'll view it differently.

Just give whatever it is to God. He's still working on all of us.

In Chapter 14 Paul discusses the 'Use' and non-abuse of the gifts.

But "sandwiched" between his discussion on the Gifts, he put in Chpt. 13 - about Love again. Paul knew to stick Love between the gifts so often, because it is when our gifts "collide" and we don't make Love and respect for each other's gifts a priority,that, that's when we'll not get along too well ... and the Purpose of the gifts, in the first place, is to "Build up the Body".

Not cause Gang Wars. Ha !

We all may be looking at the same Picture, but just from different views (gifts).

We can't and should never feel we don't need each other, because that would be 'renting or tearing HIS body apart'..

But don't 'focus' on your own gift, (that leads to arrogance and will mess up your gift.), but focus on The Giver as He called Himself, "Servant".
And I feel it's very wrong to also go around telling people what your gift Is. (ie. "I'm a Teacher" or "I'm a Prophet" or "I have Mercy", etc.)
Try to be humble in that area and Keep that between you and God.

We just must try to be patient with and most of all respect each other's gifts (because GOD gave it to them) and know that above all else, 1Corth 13 ... and that no gift is better than or higher than another's.
We need all and each other.


Thanks y'all.



Quote:
3rd Post ~

That is what the gifts are for, but my #1 point of writing that, was so we'd see our differences in a more understanding light.

Many times, misunderstandings can come about in a discussion, but it is only because it's a brother with a gift of Teaching, and a sister with the gift of Mercy, may think the teaching is too hard. Etc, Etc.

That's when the gifts "collide", and that was the origin of the reason, of why I wanted to write that ... not to over-emphasize the gifts.




Quote:
1st Re: to KJ ~

We can't always see other's gifts or leadings or burdens from God, that others see, so contentions can come on or from that basis.

Experientially, I've seen this happen in the Body, more than can be numbered.

Prophets are either hated or loved ... no, in between .... Scripturally.

Take any Preacher or Teacher you know, and see if you can't find someone who doesn't say, "He's too judgmental, or negative, or legalistic, etc."
Yet the Word says, ALL believers have "gifts" of one kind or another, and many times, a gift of Mercy can usually only see to pamper the sheep, (which is Great, when that is the Need of the hour). Mercy is better than sacrifice, and blessed are the merciful - for they shall obtain mercy, but what if You see it's time for correction, or reproof and a "mercy-filled" person can't see your point of view, heads may butt.

To cut each other more "slack", when 'contention' comes, I'd rather look on the least incriminating causes, then to just say, "Oh, they're just carnal, immature, not "in the spirit", and ETC., with the multiple charges folks throw at each other, or judgments we can make on others in our own thinking.

I just like to see us cut each other more slack, and say, their "burden is just different from mine" ... and Not - "they're wrong and I'm right"... because my burdens from God are not my best friend's, or even my husband's.


Your burden from God, is obviously not that of all the other Christians in your area.


But if you still doubt it happens, look at the Church or Forums.
;-? [\quote]



Quote:
Last post before inquisition:

The song "How beautiful, is The Body of Christ", kept running through my head, as I was cruisin' here.

I ask a question on a thread, and Pop, here comes a Member, to answer my question.

How beautiful how the Body can work together.

Made these verses come back to my mind again.

And realized just then, that it was Pauls Intro verses to what he was about to say, about the gifts to the Body, and how they work "together" to make a "whole" and to make "us" whole.
NEAT !


1Co 12:14 For the body is not one member, but many.
1Co 12:15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
1Co 12:16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
1Co 12:17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
1Co 12:18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
1Co 12:19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?
1Co 12:20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.
1Co 12:21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
1Co 12:22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:
1Co 12:23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honorable, upon these we bestow more abundant honor; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.



Quote:
Bottomline to PL ~

If Love was put first, in All things ... these type "impersonal" refutations, would not exist on a Site that has been earnestly striving for Unity, Love and Peace between us, who have been given free access to grow here, together as His Body.

How sad.



"Purpose", was to avoid contentions.[/b]





 2005/8/5 16:36
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
I just like to see us cut each other more slack, and say, their "burden is just different from mine" ... and Not - "they're wrong and I'm right"... because my burdens from God are not my best friend's, or even my husband's.


We have addressed these issues many times in the past. This is just one of them. [url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=2485&forum=35&post_id=&refresh=Go]Do all things in the name...[/url]


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/8/5 17:55Profile









 Re:

Dear King Jimmy,

I feel because you are called to Evangelism and as I've told you more than once in our PMs, I Highly respect that ministry more than I could say -- although I believe you know from my replies to you, that your particular "area" is why I was so glad to hear of the work you do.

Out of respect, I would like to reply to your question personally .... although this is what I was trying to avoid saying in any of my posts on this thread.

The reason I was trying to avoid this "answer", is because, as I've been trying to say, through-out this thread and 'why' I posted it, was so we all could "respect each other" and not "think the worst first" when we disagree on a thread, or even in our Church.

I wanted to avoid bringing the attention to "acedemics", but keep it From "our hearts", for and to each other but,in AoG Bible college, 25 yr.s ago, when we had the class on 1Corth., the same elder/missionary/Professor, that taught college level greek, also taught 1Corth.

He taught, that the "Whole Reason" for Chapters 12 through 14, was Exactly for the reason stated here, in this thread .... that In Corinth, the Church was "clashing with" and not "understanding" the gifts and some thought their's was better than others and things were getting out of control there, because of all that I was trying to say in this thread.

Reading 1 Corth. 12-14 and learning the "background" of "why" Paul had to give that long discourse and why he stuck 1Cor13 in the middle of his discourse and "rebukes" of their use of the gifts, will give much understanding of "where in Scripture" this topic in this thread had originated.

Not from me, but by the Church at Corinth and by Paul.

I didn't want to say all of this on this thread, because it would distract from my "purpose", highlighted in the bold-print reply above and put the attention where I did not intend for it to go.
To anyone's acedemic background, etc. etc. which I see as would just be a "blah,blah,blah" addition from me, if I had.

I believe, when we post, it should be to "encourage the Body" or "exhort for growth" and not to use too many "I's" in our posts. In other words ... to not talk about ourselves so much, but to look for ways to encourage each other, From His Word, instead.

I'm sorry I had to bring up where I learned this stuff about the "clashing", which was the cause and reason why Paul had to write 1 Corth. 12-14 in the first place. But I felt I owed you the courtesy of a truthful or clearer response ....

I pray for your calling, as I do for every other Christian on this Forum,,, Everyone of which has a very necessary gift, that our God, has Specially given to them ... and I pray they are blessed by being used of God and we are blessed by their gifts, and do not judge them.

Blessings of His Presence,

Annie



 2005/8/5 18:09
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
I wanted to avoid bringing the attention to "acedemics", but keep it From "our hearts", for and to each other but,in AoG Bible college, 25 yr.s ago, when we had the class on 1Corth., the same elder/missionary/Professor, that taught college level greek, also taught 1Corth.

He taught, that the "Whole Reason" for Chapters 12 through 14, was Exactly for the reason stated here, in this thread .... that In Corinth, the Church was "clashing with" and not "understanding" the gifts and some thought their's was better than others and things were getting out of control there, because of all that I was trying to say in this thread.

Reading 1 Corth. 12-14 and learning the "background" of "why" Paul had to give that long discourse and why he stuck 1Cor13 in the middle of his discourse and "rebukes" of their use of the gifts, will give much understanding of "where in Scripture" this topic in this thread had originated.

Not from me, but by the Church at Corinth and by Paul.


Annie
This is why I am challenging this line of thought. I think your professor was wrong if he thought they were 'not understanding the gifts'. I think the thing that they did not understand was the cross and its application in their own lives and in the experience of their gathering. I think the fatal illness which the assembly at Corinth was suffering from is headlined in the first chapter; 'each of one you says [u]I[/u]'. You will appreciate the power of emphatic pronouns in Greek and Paul emphasizes the personal pronoun 'I' 4 times in verse 12. In fact he doesn't even repeat the verb but only the pronoun “Now this I mean, that each one of you saith, [u]I[/u] am of Paul; and [u]I[/u] of Apollos: and [u]I[/u] of Cephas; and [u]I [/u]of Christ.” (1Cor. 1:12, ASV) The problem in Corinth was "I" uncrucified.

The 'gifts' or 'distributions' of the Holy Spirit themselves could never cause conflict; that would mean a house divided against itself. Nor are they in 'tension' with one another as some express it. No more than any member of by body is in conflict or tension with any other member. It was not the 'gifts' that occasioned the conflict but the recipients.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/8/5 18:28Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re: Gifts

There are Tree different groups of Gifts

These are gifts from our Father, and Every one has at least one of these:
Rom 12:6-8 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;
: 7 Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teaches, on teaching;
: 8 Or he that exhorts, on exhortation: he that gives, let him do it with simplicity; he that rules, with diligence; he that show mercy, with cheerfulness.

1 Corinthian - Chapter 12 These next only come on people when the time is needed and are momentary, they are not permanent.
The gifts from the Holy Spirit are not for the one who is being used by the Holy Spirit with the gift, but is for the benefit of the ones that they are toward.

These are the Gifts from Jesus
Ephesians - Chapter 4:11 and he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

Only a few people have these gifts, notice He said "some", and they are only for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

 2005/8/5 18:54Profile





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