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KingJimmy
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Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

But, God showed him that she was born again. When illuminated on the subject, he was shown that though they can't get into your spirit, they can get into your body if you let them.



This is entirely absurd. There is not even a hint of understanding in the Scriptures that this is possible. What you call "illumination" is only in reality darkness.

If your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, then your body cannot be full of the Devil.

Quote:

Getting saved doesn't automatically cast all of them away from you.



How in the world can such a person be called saved... in what sense are they saved? Such a person is still under the dominion of Satan, and therefore, not saved.


_________________
Jimmy H

 2005/8/27 11:55Profile
Manfred
Member



Joined: 2005/4/4
Posts: 342
Continental Europe

 Re:

Quote:
We really can't believe that everything that there is to know about the spiritual realm is included in the Bible. One missionary speaking at our church was amazed that he had to cast a demon out of a Christian-his church's traditions said it wasn't possible. But, God showed him that she was born again. When illuminated on the subject, he was shown that though they can't get into your spirit, they can get into your body if you let them. Or if, in this case, you are an African brought up in a demonic religion. Getting saved doesn't automatically cast all of them away from you. There is quite a difference between our spirits and our souls and our bodies.



I would join with Jimmy here is saying high and loud that the above is totally absurd.

Quote:
We really can't believe that everything that there is to know about the spiritual realm is included in the Bible.



Really ? I don't think that there is a thing that we can experience that cannot be found in the Bible. And if it is the case, then our experience must seriously be questioned.

Manfred

 2005/8/27 16:29Profile
Manfred
Member



Joined: 2005/4/4
Posts: 342
Continental Europe

 Re:

Quote:
I've always had the impression that he's one saint in particular that his devotees won't question.



Baruch,

That would be a terrible mistake:

Now these were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of the mind, examining the Scriptures daily, whether these things were so., Acts 17:11.

Notice that it was what Paul was saying that these people were examining.

Manfred

 2005/8/27 16:35Profile
Khatharr
Member



Joined: 2005/9/6
Posts: 1


 Re:

My first post on a new forum... Here we go!

Quote:
Really ? I don't think that there is a thing that we can experience that cannot be found in the Bible. And if it is the case, then our experience must seriously be questioned.

Like space travel, internet use, fast food restaurants, etc? Does the Bible talk directly about multi-dimensionality, which it implies, or for that matter, what was Lamech's favorite hobby?

Does the Bible talk about everything? Well, the scripture teaches us the principals of God and what we need to know to serve Him. No more, and no less, and yet, that's an incredible mouthful in itself. It's not necessary for the Bible to tell us about space travel, because God's principals apply the same in space as they do on Earth. If I go to the moon and beat up an astronaut, then I've sinned, just like if I had beat someone up in LA.

Just like outer space, the Bible doesn't talk much about the direct spiritual side of existance, and what it does talk about is mostly confusing, since we're not really equipped to live there right now. We've gotta wait for our new bodies before we'll be ready to grasp a lot of that stuff.

But here's a question to consider. The bible repeatedly warns against the use of sorcery and witchcraft. Doesn't this imply that there's something to them?

I question my own experiences often, as it is wise to question all things. Before I was saved, I studied and even practiced a lot of differnet things. There are things out there that are real that make a lot of Christians shake in their boots and move to denial. Why? Doesn't the scripture teach that the gates of hell shall not prevail against us? Stop being afraid that there may be some validity to these things and accept that there's a whole other world out there that isn't our business right now.

I know that a lot of people teach that all 'magic' is just demonic influence of some sort. And if you want to teach that, then whatever. The majority of it is.

However, there are some things that are human 'capabilities' which are 'off-limits' for us. I struggled with this issue for a long time in my early Christian walk. My flesh wanted desperately to cling to the things that I knew how to do, but my renewed spirit (Not to mention His Spirit!) was calling me away from them. To compound this issue was the fact that the mainstream church tends to shoot its own wounded, and knowing that, there was nowhere I could turn for Godly advice.... Except to God Himself.

Which begins the tie-in with the other thing you were talking about, which, yes, is absurd. Does the Bible explicitly say that a saved person cannot be possessed? No, not directly. If you study the matter out for more than 30 seconds the conclusion will become apparent, though.

However, doesn't just the concept of a saved person being demon possessed offend the Spirit of Truth inside of you? Can't you feel that? God Himself testifies to us if we listen to Him. I've dealt with demons for a long time, both in my BC years and in my AD years ;-) and I'll tell you right now that no demon is gonna get control of one of God's redeemed. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit makes the idea absurd. For me it's as if that still, small voice is saying, "I'd like to see them try it. lol"

I dunno. I'm kinda coming off half-cocked here, but it's late and I'm sleepy, so please forgive me.

Since I'm new to this forum and not completely clear yet on how this whole system works, I wanted to make comment on some Nee stuff, though. The anti-Nee sites that I've come across are all about how humans are utterly powerless and all of this stuff must be nonsense because only God has any power. This immediately brings to mind the account of Babel, specifically Genesis 11:6. Then they go on to say that Nee was a 'mystic' and thus can't be trusted.

According to WordNet the noun mystic has one meaning:

Meaning #1: someone who believes in the existence of realities beyond human comprehension

Well, I'm a mystic, and not much can be done to change that. John was a mystic. Christ is a mystic.... Anyway....

Then they start misquoting Nee, saying that he claimed that Christ used His 'latent powers', which, having only scanned the first chapter so far of Latent Power, I know is not what Nee said. Why is the mainstream church so afraid of this? I'm looking for a full copy of this book and it's friggin hard to find, which frustrates me. Nee wrote a book about the reasons that we should set these things aside when we come to Christ, and I want to read it because it is pertinant to my experience, and yet there's Pergamos out there smacking my hand and saying "That stuff isn't real, just get over it."

Argh.... My people, my people, my people.... Will you deny me to use the brain that God put in my head, even as it's tempered by His Spirit within me?

:-P

Sorry, I know that probably doesn't have anything to do with you folks here, I just needed to vent.

The blessing of God be with you in the name of Jesus, the Christ.

-Until He comes.

 2005/9/6 4:11Profile
Warrior4Jah
Member



Joined: 2005/7/5
Posts: 382
The Netherlands

 Re:

Hi Khatarr, and welcome :)

Quote:

I know that a lot of people teach that all 'magic' is just demonic influence of some sort. And if you want to teach that, then whatever. The majority of it is.



I wanted to respond on this bit of post of you. :-P
Well I haven't read an awefull alot of Watchman Nee, apart from some articles and one book 'Finest of the wheat' (which I haven't finished yet) but if I'm correct he states that humans had certain powers which where retained or hold back since the fall of man.

But if it is, why can't all 'magic' still not be demonic influence? Something has to trigger these 'shut away' powers doesn't it? It would not be shut away if man could reach it themselves.
People claiming to have certains powers or do the 'so called' supernatural are often not doing these by God's Holy Spirit. Watchman Nee used this to explain why there are people who could do the 'impossible'.. (while not following God)

Just some thoughts there.

About if demons can posses a reborn Christian filled with the Holy Spirit..
My first thought of this was that we have one thing written down in the NT which may get close..
Matthew 16:23 and Mark 8:33

[b]Mark 8:33[/b] [i]But when he had turned about and looked on his disciples, he rebuked Peter, saying, Get thee behind me, Satan: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men.[/i]

Peter did follow Christ. Still he got suddenly influenced.
What did just sprang up in me is that the Holy Spirit didn't come yet.
But still, how can an evil spirit fall upon someone filled with the Holy Spirit? Seems not possible to me.

Well you can allow yourself to not be filled by the Holy Spirit.. something else can 'posses' you when that happens, for example money. Regardingless if there is a 'money' demon or not..

Isn't satan trying his best to 'reclaim' you, find weak spots where he can get hold of you more and more? satan doesn't stop his attacks on you if you are just an average christian or a great spiritual man or woman of God. he's trying to dismantle you slowy so eventually you can be possesed... by worldy things.

How can satan ever break the link God has with us through the Holy Spirit? he can't touch God or His works. he can (only) attack that through our flesh.. and we then decide to sin or set our mind or hearts on something else.

Some more thoughts..


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Jonathan Veldhuis

 2005/9/9 17:32Profile
Graftedbranc
Member



Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re:

The argument that "if one's body is the temple of the Holy Spirit and therefore cannot be host to the "devil"" is an unscriptural notion.

It could just as well be argued that if ones body is the temple of the Holy Spirit then it would be free from lusts and the principle of indwelling sin. Yet this is not what the scritpures affirm as Paul said, "I know that in me dwells no good thing, that is in my flesh." And we are told in Galatians that if we "by the Spirit do put to death the deeds of the body we whall live...". The body has its "deeds" which we need to apply by the Spirit the cross to overcome it and to "put it to death" in experience.

The fact is our bodies have yet to be redeemed (dispositionally in contrast to positionally) according to Romans 8 and 1 Cor 15. Our bodies now are still a body of sin. Our souls are yet unrenewed fully. Our spirit has been regenerated, our soul is being renewed and transformed from within by the indwelling Spirit of Christ and our bodies await the Lords return when we shall be transfigured and our bodies glorified by the Spirit who indwells us (Romans 8).

THe issue of 'possession' is one of definition. To be "possessed" in one sense is to be "under the control of". A Christian who is living and acting in his "soul life" and who gives himeself to some sin can very well become temporarily used and controlled by the evil fallen spirits.

A backslidden Christian who has grieved the indwelling Spirit and who is pursuing his fleshly lusts for a time subjects himself to such a situation. His spirit is redeemed and regenerated and does not sin because it is born of God, but his soul and body are not yet in that state. Our spirit is Life because of rightousness (of Christ), If our mind is set on the spirit it is life, and our bodies will be made alive at the Lord's comming. This is all clearly laid out in Romans 8.


If regeneration of our spirit automatically renewed and transformed our minds and transfigured our fallen bodies, then yes, it would be an impossibility. But it does not. It requires our ongoing cooperation with the indwelling Christ and daily feeding on Him in His word for the Spirit to fully renew us and transform us into the image of the Firstborn Son of God.

JPL and Watchman Nee both understood the process of salvation beginning with regeneration as the entrance and starting point, renewing, transformation, and conformation as the daily ongoing process, and final transfiguration by the indwelling Spirit at our Lord's return as the consumation of Christ's redeeming work in us dispensationally as well as positionally.

JPLs view is based on an understanding wholly rooted in the Bible and because it differs from our traditional or natural religious notions and concepts does not invalidate it.

 2005/11/8 13:18Profile
Graftedbranc
Member



Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re:

I think these are some good points. It needs to be clear that regeneration is not the same as "being filled with the Holy Spirit'. IN Acts, the diciples were already regenerated but on occasion it is written that they were "suddenly filled with the Spirit'.

To be regenerated is to be born again of the Spirit of God. That is to have our dead human spirit resurrected and indwelt by Christ as the "Life Giving Spirit"(1 Cor 15:45). ON the eve of His resurrection in John 22, the Lord Jesus as the resurrected Christ breathed into His diciples saying, "recieve the Holy Spirit". this was a good 50 days prior to Pentecost when the Spirit of the Ascended Christ was poured out in power.

When we repent and believe into the Lord Jesus, we are regenerated and He comes into us as Life. We are New Creatures. He indwells our spirit. He as the resurrected Christ enters into us bringing His Eternal Life into us making us children of God with His Life and Nature.

Our spirit is born from above and we are now Children of God with His indwelling LIfe and Nature. But our souls (our mind, will, and emotions) are not yet in resurrection and not yet renewed and transformed. This the the process of growth. Christ is sown into us as the Seed of the Divine Life but this Life has to grow in us daily as we feed on Him, daily taking the cross denying our soul life and living by Christ as our indwelling Life.

Genuine growth in the Christian Life requires us to daily spend time with the Lord, call on Him continually, pray and feed on His word and contact Him in our spirit daily to be fed, strengthend, enlightened and empowered to walk according to His Spirit in our spirit to manifest Him as our Life.

We all must admit that though we are Christians, born of God and have His Life, we are still fallen creatures still in possesion of our fallen natural life and quite capable of turning aside, of being misled, of even deliberatly choosing to ignore the promptings of the Spirit within us. Otherwise Paul would not have told us, "Grieve not the Holy Spirit of God by Whom you were sealed..." or "do not quench the Spirit'. If we could not do this, surely he would have not have spoken these words.

And though we may be born of God with His indwelling Life, we are still very natural in our concepts and in our opinions and in our feelings and intentions. When we are saved we are full of our own religious concepts of how to live and please God. And to the degree we act according to our natural constitution we are acting according to the prince of this world. But only by the daily application of the Cross by the Spirit are we transformed and renewed and brought experientually into the experience of the overcomming Life of Christ.

The fact is, if we are living by our natural fallen life, even our good nature, we are in the realm of the old fallen creation and in our experience we are in the "domain of darkness". Only as we are renewed in the spirit of our mind and enjoy the indwelling Life of Christ do we experience the reality of being translated into the Kingdom of the Son of His Love. This is not automatic. When we become Christians we are translated from one domain to Another, but we need the growth in Life to enter into its reality experientually.

 2005/11/8 14:07Profile
Graftedbranc
Member



Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re: Witness Lee and Watchman Nee

Witness Lee was Watchman Nee's closest co-worker. I heard a testimony last year by a very elderly Chinese man who shared a cell with Watchman Nee in the Chinese Prison and who was converted there through Watchman Nee. This brother was released after 7 years and just prior to his release, according to his testimony, Watchman Nee took him by both hands, looked him in the eye and said, "brother, when you are released, look up brother Witness Lee. My teaching is his teaching and my words are his words". This is the attitude Nee had toward Lee.

It was also Nee who selected Witness Lee to leave China and take the Ministry to Tiawan under the communist threat. Under HIs specific instruction, Lee took severl co-workers and believers and went to Tiawan where in 5 years the church there grew from 400 to over 50,000.


I have been a believer for 30 years and was greatly influenced by Watchman Nee in my younger years. I attended the Evangelical Institute of Greenville SC, a school founded by Joseph S. Carroll, author of "How to Worship Jesus Christ".

Three years ago I began to meet with the local church in my city. I came in with a strong evangelical background with many years of biblical study and church history under my belt.

When I began to meet with the local church, though I found there the most rich and living expression of Christ in His body, I was conserned that the ministry was in keeping with Watchman Nee's. I knew and trusted Nee but I did not know Witness Lee except for negative things published about him by many. For at least 6 months I gave myselve relentlessly to study the ministry materials to determing if it was the same as Watchman Nees and especially to determine if all things were scritpural.

What I found was that everything taught by Witness Lee could be found at least in seed form in the teaching and writing of Watchman Nee. I took every teaching and searched the works of Nee and found them all.

But, what has to be considered is that, evan as Nee's teaching evolved and matured over time, so has the ministry of the Living Stream. That is, Nee's ministry spaned 30 years. Lee's ministry continued another 40 years and though the teaching in the "recovery" today is developed and matured, it is mined from the same shaft opened by Nee.

The principle of "locality" which Nee saw in scritpure is more than a "law". IT is based in the reality of the oneness of the body of Christ as revealed in scritpure. It is based in Life, not law. And it is inclusive, not exclusive.

The local churches hold that all believers in any given city are members of the One body of Christ and therefore members of the church in that city. Whether or not they choose to leave their denominational affiliation or distinctions and meet with believers simply as "the church", They are in fact members of the One church in their locality. The church is inclusive of all believers. And since church membership is a matter not of joining a group or "denomination" but rather a matter of being joined to the Lord Jesus Christ through regeneration and the One Spirit, all believers in a given locality are by regeneration members of the One Body and members of the church in their locality.

As a testimony to the Oneness of the body of Christ, the local churches meet simply as, "the church in ________".

The term "Little Flock" is not a name which Nee adopted. It was a name others began to impose as a result of Nee's publishing of a hymnal called, "Hymns for the Little flock". Nee never adopted any name other than "the local churches" in China. The "local churches" today are just the same as in China. There is no difference. Local churches is not a name but just a reference to what the churches are. They are churches and they are Local.

I can testify that today, the local churches are in the same stream that was begun through Watchman Nee. Others, even his other co-workers have sought to set up works and churches, but where are they? Today, there are over 3000 local churches (not counting mainland China)world wide through the ministtry of the Living Stream with is the ministry of Witness Lee. Today in Russia there are over 300 local churches raised up through this ministry. And in China there are over 1,000,000 believers who adhere to the present ministry of the Living Stream.

In the beginning, I appreciated the ministry of Watcham Nee as unpresidented in our age. And I say this as one who has been privilaged to sit under the teaching of the greats of this age including Joseph Carroll, A. W. Tozer, Martin Lloud Jones, and others.

After over 3 yeras of fellowship with the saints in the Lord's recovery, though my study and fellowship with the Lord Himself, I have come to appreciate the ministry of Witness Lee as one which far surpasses any other in terms of Light, Life and understanding of the New Testament and God's economy. If Nee was a Jet, the present ministry of the Living Streem is the space shuttle.

These are my conclusions and not arived at lightly nor ignorantly or blindly. There is in the recovery today a measure of Light, life, and intensity which I have not seen anywhere else in my 30 years of Christian life and service.

There is also a measure of freedom and liberty which I have not found in any other movement or christian group. In the recovery, Christ is the head of the church and we are all members one of another. There is no outward control, hierarchy, central authority, but all things are done in Life and by Life.

And in the local churches all the members function and speak. There is no single "Pastor" but rather leading brothers who shepard and equip the saints for the work of the ministry. The Body is built up not just by the joints of the rich supply but also by the measure of each one part.

Nee and Lee are in the Same Divine Stream which proceeds from the throne of God and of the Lamb. There is in reality only one Stream, One flow, one river of the water of Life, One New Testament Ministry, One New Covenent, One Gospel, One Body, One Spirit, One Lord Jesus Christ, One God and Father who is over all, through all, and in all. And we all should seek the Lord who redeemed us to find this stream and to enjoy its rich supply.

Graftedbranch












 2005/11/8 15:14Profile
Graftedbranc
Member



Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re:

I am not sure what is considered "cultish" about the Local churches in the US. To begin with, "cult" is not really a biblical term but a modern psysological term. A better word is "heretical sect" which is more accurate in defining an abarent group of so called Christians. And today one would look in vain to find in the local churches anything to justify the accusation of "heretical sect". There is no heresy in the local churches but rather the most biblical and orthodox doctrine and practice of any group I have encountered in my 30 years of Christian Life and service.


I beleive that in most Christian's understanding today, the word "cult" would be in referenece, if honestly considered, to be anyone who is different from the Norm of what is considered "mainstream" and in that definition, I would agree that the local churches do fall into that catagory.

But "mainstream" is not the standard of orthodoxy nor of New Testament Christianity. If it were so, then the "mainstream" would today not be in the state it is in which is very low in terms of Biblical Christianity. IN the days of the Apostles, the Christians were referred to as a "cult of the Nazerine".

I mean, come on, honestly, if we check with our experience and consider the content of all the semrmons in this web site such as Tozer's and Ravenhill, etc. can we say that today's mainstream is an accurate expression of the church life as presented in the New Testament? I believe we would all have to agree that the answer is no. Otherwise these sermons would have no relavence.

Yet, the mainstream belief and practice is in most believers the standard by which they judge whether or not a particular group is a "cult". We all lament the state of modern Christianity but woe to those who step "outside the camp" and claim anything related to the genuine article. There is inherent in most the belief that the genuine thing does not exist and cannot exist in our age.

Yet, is this not an absolute denial of the plain revelion of the New Testament? Is there no reality to the body of Christ? Is Christ as the ascended Lord not known anywhere? Did Christ really come into this world as God manifest in the flesh? Was He not crucified for our sins and resurrected? Is He not today in resurrection the Life Giving Spirit to indwell us, to make us children of God, sharers of His resurrection Life, and partakers of the Divine Nature to be His many brothers through His redemption and indweling Life?

The Local churches today enjoy this reality. The Local churches have broken with the mainstream and don't seek the mainstream's approval. Today there is on this earth those who meet together as the church, who hold no other head then the Lord Jesus Christ and who meet in His Name alone and enjoy the reality of Christ as the indwelling Life Giving Spirit who brings into all the reality of the Triune God, incarnated, crucified and resurrected and glorified.

Those who choose to remain in their divisions and denominational distictions may scoff and try to justify their position by using such terms as "cultic" but the only standard to be considered is the scriptures themselves alone. And an unbiased and prayerful consideration of the scritpures will show that the local churches today are fully in line with the Biblical revelation and in the meetings of the churches there is the reality of Christ in a way that is non existant in any other group on the earth. I say this as a matter of testimony and observation, not of biased opinion.

If the standared is "mainstream" then both the "little flock" in China and today's "local churches" (if you choose to make such a differance) are cults. The denominations in China persecuted Nee and the so called "little flock" the same as they today do the local churches. But the reality is that they were the "local churches" in Nee's day as they are today and the local churches today are just the continuation of the same New Testament Ministry which Nee ministered.

Graftedbranch













 2005/11/10 22:20Profile





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