Thanks again for answering.
Yes, I've done all that you've listed and the Lord is always very quick to answer with the "why", but it's me, that has the problem with "seperating".
I believe from all I've been through, growing up and since, to [b]never give up on anybody[/b] and that has been burned like a brand into my heart ... so when I feel the Lord say, "Step back" ... I give Him quite a time, before I obey.
With lots of tears, but also as you say, the Love that provokes that constant prayer and may I add "grieving in spirit", that must accompany it. Pray, and NEVER GIVE UP ON ANYBODY, even "IF" the Lord tells you to step back.
Thank you and Lord Bless you.
| 2005/9/16 18:37|
It sounds like this is a rather big issue, at least a very emotionally charged situation.
When others deny it, its also hard to know what move to make next. I must be really restricting.
That must be hard, especially having to question people you trust.
Because it is so emotionally charged, I guess a key part is finding rest in the Holy Spirit. Otherwise wisdom and peace can escape you, which makes everything harder to sort out! Im not sure if I said it before, but the sitaution I was talking about was extreemly volatile for me: In light of something my leader did years ago, this confrontation was hard. My heart rate would rise as if I had just done a 100m sprint. I felt like it would burst out of my chest and I couldn't breathe properly. I would like awake at night because it wouldn't leave until around 1am. So it went beyond emotional to full anxiety, which took alot of time in the prayer closet, learning peace from the Prince of Peace. It also took alot to forgive the leader for causing that. So in response to "What would you suggest?" I would definately reccomend ALOT of prayer time until you have found peace about it.
In regard to others denying it, I guess it would take the wisdom of a serpant and innocence of a dove. My leader and someone else were "teaming up" and one of them was telling lies about me. I had access to many messages they sent eachother, (they sent it by PM in a forum, and I had access to the whole database), and I could have easily pulled out what they had said to eachother and exposed some lies etc. The problem was that it was disrespecing their privacy, so I had to be innocent. I don't know if there is any temptation for you in "information wrongfully attained" but that was just in case! Because they denied it, I guess I have two questons:
1. What is their response to the evidence presented? It just may be that there is more that you haven't heard yet, which could mean they didn't lie.
2. Are they calling you a liar? If they are, without evidence, I wouldnt get too involved in their immaturity.
Now to the trust, you said: "Trust could easily be restored if they would only admit it, but they refuse to do so, now where does that put me?"
For me, it was really hard to remember the difference between forgiveness and trust. God commands you to forgive others, but He doesnt command you to trust them! I think that is what I talked about in one of my last posts. However, it would be unwise to just jump back into trusting them. Trust takes time to develop, and must be earned in a relationship. It is possible to still have friendship with them without trust, but you might just have to wait for the trust to be built before you can be close again. Love them unconditionally, and forgive them too! Take care not to change: "Trust could easily be restored if they would only admit it" into "Forgiveness could easily be given if they would only admit it" Pray for her (that was a hard one for me!) :-)
I'm no pastor or counsellor, so please just take what I said and ask your Counsellor if He is using anything to prompt you! :-)
Lord, please give ginnyrose peace and comfort in dealing with friends like this. Give her clarity when she is in prayer, and please speak to her. Guide her into your presence and help her to find rest, and grace to love them. Please help her to be as wise as a serpent and as innocent as a dove, just as you commanded. Help her know what to say and do, and what not to. Thankyou for your forgiveness that we don't deserve, please help ginny to love them and remain forgiving, finding comfort in you. Please restore their friendship to something that glorifies you. Thankyou Father.
| 2005/9/16 19:46||Profile|
| Re: Fellowship/Seperation|
I was so touched to hear read that you were wondering where I was!
Last month I felt like I was spending way too much time on here. I was posting alot in these forums and listening to alot of sermons. But slowly I spent more time here and less time "on my knees". I finally came to the realisation that I had somehow become legalistic on myself, and I had neglected the relationship, love, and grace side of God. I felt like I should take a month off to just find the love and grace again, to really get back to relationship with Him rather than religion. It has been good, but not as fast as my impaitent spirit would have liked! Please pray for me. :-)
I guess in away its sort of the same with people as it is with whole communities. I detached myself from this community for a little while because I had used it as a subsitiute for relationship with God. I felt always condemnded, as I was relying on religion, but when I detahced myself to realign my mindset and relationship, things fell into place.
I have had to detach myself from other people because they were affecting my relationship with God. Thats not to say I don't talk to them now, and I will happily spend some time with them. But I am definately not seeking a friendship like before until God does something in them or me so that they don't bring me down! A big thing I learned at school was that friends have influence on us, and I have to decide who I will trust with the authroity to speak into my life. By the same token, I had to decide who's authority I needed to usurp. That defined who I would be close with and who I wouldnt.
I'm sure thats all simple stuff to you, but I had to share it anyway ;-)
| 2005/9/16 20:10||Profile|
Thanks! Annie and coops for your inspiring, encouraging words.
Annie, has it right: you can deal with a lot of sins but the one of lying, is about as low as you can get because it destroys trust and unless it is acknowledged and confessed one is left feeling very alone.
I have prayed and prayed. Very few days go by that I do not pray for these women. I have been sent to the scriptures for my comfort and guidance and the LORD has encouraged me to be faithful every time. BUT what bothers me is what if the LORD returns. I feel so bad about all this, yet God knows if there would be anything I could do to fix it, I would try.
Initially, the HS told me to go talk with this young woman and I got really battered. These women that came to the meeting did apologize for being there - felt like they were being disobedient to the HS in going, but the things they said they have no memory of! Nor did they recall any of it, among them lies....
One lesson I did learn is that if you go to the defense of a sinner you will likely commit the same! In this case the issue was lying and they in turn lied and then denied doing that!!! I have the feeling the issue is greater then lying: there must be some demonic activity involved here. And perhaps that is why these women have no memory of the things they said.
I do not know if I am making any sense....
| 2005/9/16 21:29||Profile|
I enjoyed your postings, Coop.
I have been offended at times, and didn't handle
it the Biblical way.
I will God's will in my life.
I don't have the Book.
Would like to have it.
God Bless you
| 2005/9/16 21:49||Profile|
| Re: coops is back.|
Welcome back brother. Ya just had me concerned that's all. We never know what happens, only being keyboard family and all.
As far as "why" you were off .... :-D .... fully understand, and did it myself for almost 2 yr.s.
But as this book you were sharing with us, has blessed me also, so much, about "how to take offenses" .... well, this is where I hope to grow on that, and learn how to react better and all.
I can't do that home-alone. I need people to push my buttons ... (even if they're innocent of it) ... to check my "reflexes" so to speak.
Iron sharpens iron, and all that good/bad stuff.
But as far as "Praying" ... now that's a real good reason for a break.
You and I met on your prayer thread some while back and I've been praying for you ever since. And it's so cool that you turned around and were doing this thread on all the things I needed and wanted to hear. Thank you !
I hope the Lord will allow you to spend some time here and then also back to your hanging out with HIM.
I think, if we hang out with Him more and pray more, maybe we won't get mixed up so much.
I thought that myself about me lately, more than usual :-( .
Watchman Nee said, that even a "flat tire" is ordained by God, to bring out of us, what's really in there.
And Rom 8:28 is FOR 29. So "nothing" is an accident. God allows ALL THINGS to push what's really in us 'out'. That's how we come to the Image of vs. 29.
I love Nee. I know he wasn't dead on with eschatology or whatever else, but each man had their specialty. And for 'dying to self', that guy had it down.
Well, I'm sure glad you're still with the living.
I'd be jealous if you got There before me or something :-P .
Love you lots coops.
| 2005/9/16 23:02|
Quote: Thankyou! I don't know where I would be right now without that!
You and I met on your prayer thread some while back and I've been praying for you ever since.
My dad has told me I must read watchman nee, its good to hear some other reccomendations! I might get around to it now!
Anyway, about offenses etc: I'll try and post more from the book either today or tomorrow, it seems it is really something that we all need to hear and keep fresh in out minds. God bless :-)
| 2005/9/17 20:25||Profile|
Thank you coops. I would really appreciate if you did continue as you were on this thread.
I like having it to refer back to.
Ya never know, when the guy who forgave you last week, may not change his mind today and try to reopen old wounds, that you thought had been healed.
Maybe cuz this is such a big issue for most of us, you could keep it bumped in that way.
[u]Thank you !!![/u]
As far as Nee goes, I guess his Bestest, was his little book "Release of the Spirit".
In lines of what you've been posting on here and much needed, even by those Saints that don't struggle with stuff as maybe we do.
He shows that "dying to self" is our biggest problem/Goal, even if we 'think' we're dead.
I kept giving mine away, then finally decided, I'll always keep a copy, because no matter how many times I read it, I still need to read it :-? .
God Bless you coops.
| 2005/9/18 13:54|
| Re: Spiritual "Fathers" (Leaders) and offence|
Last time I posted about how Joseph's brothers betrayed him. While that would be hard, it can be harder to be hurt by a "father" (biological, or some spiritual leader etc, someone you look up to).
[b]My father, know and see that there is neither evil nor rebellion in my hand, and I have not sinned against you. Yet you hunt my life and take it.[/b] - 1 Samuel 24:11
When we look at Saul and David we see a really revelaing example of this: it's like a love-hate relationship. Saul is proud David, David loves Saul and looks up to him and serves him. One day Saul changes his mind and begins to try and take David out, [url=http://www.psycom.net/depression.central.borderline.html]BPD style[/url]. Now besides being really hard to understand, this sort of this is outright hurtful.
I know I have had people who I admired just turn on me one day. I had one leader yell at me for something when I had done nothing wrong. It hurt more than I can express. You might have had a similar experience, but remember that God had placed David under Saul, so He had some sort of a plan in mind, there was something good that could come out of this wound. (Even though it doens't feel like it most of the time).
Who will avenge me? I took the blame on myself, and for the life of me couldn't figure out why they turned on me! Finally I realised that it was them, not me. So they had hurt me and I wanted to go and get them kicked out of leadership, in fact with many witnesses it would have been an easy task. Have any of you had the same feeling?
David has the perfect opportunity to take revenge on the man that has murdered innocent people and plans to murder him, he says: [b]Do not destroy him; for who can stretch out his hand against the LORDs anointed, and be guiltless? David said furthermore, As the LORD lives, the LORD shall strike him, or his day shall come to die, or he shall go out to battle and perish. 11 The LORD forbid that I should stretch out my hand against the LORDs anointed. But please, take now the spear and the jug of water that are by his head, and let us go. [/b] - 1 Samuel 26:9-11
So was God using me to get this person out of ministry? They were doing similar things to others and leaving scars everywhere! Ohh how good would it feel to have them removed from such a terrible position. But David let Saul go, even with all the damage he was making, because he knew that God had appointed all leaders in their position for a reason. So despite his ability to remove someone who was having such a bad affect on the Lord's people, David kept his servant heart.
So who killed Saul? God used the Philistines, David had nothing to do with it. Except this, he had managed to forgive Saul long before then. He forgave him so he didn't need to take vengence, and David in fact mourned and wrote a song to honour Saul, then took care of Saul's household.
This "father" had hurt David badly. Can you think of many more emotional wounds? But David laid his offences aside and chose to forgive and continue to love. I want to be a man after God's heart, so I'm choosing to forgive, as hard as it is.
I hope this blessed someone :-)
| 2005/10/28 6:46||Profile|