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 Condemning Homosexuals, is it our place??

I have read the News Papers and I am disgusted to see the Church so wrapped up into affairs that simply is none of thier business.

The knowledge of the tree of Good and Evil is still at work, and God is not interested in any of it. God told King Saul to kill all the Almakites, both male and female, young and old, rich and poor, all the sheep and the cattle, everything must die. Yet Saul felt to bring the "good" to offer unto the LORD a sweet savour, but God was not interested in good sheep, He was interested in obedience.

The concept of Good and Evil that is in the unregenerated mind of men must die, it doesn't matter how good it looks, kill it!

Condemning the homosexual for not being straight will not make that homosexual a 'good' person, like str8's and queers they all need to be born again.

Jesus said, "I pray not for the world, but only those you have given me".

Why are we sticking our nose into the world's business? The world does what the world does, it commits good and evil, the church is not called to either, its calling is perfection.

Paul spoke against the things that were happening in the Church, not what was going on in the world.

I am sick of hearing so called Christians lashing out against these people with such bitterness that you begin to wonder if these people are really christian, or they just have a cause and not Christ.

Jesus only condemned one group of people, and they were the religious group, they always hindered the work of God and Satan is in the midst of the religious paraphernalia.

Satan is not out in the drugs or the alcohol, or the prostitute and homosexual, Satan is with the religious crowd, it's that crowd that is the broad way that leads to destruction. We see that in the great Charistmatic/Pentecostal movement.

Don't get me wrong, all the vices that I mentioned above can have demon influences, but most of it is the fallen nature of man, "the heart is above all decietful and desperately wicked, who can know it".

Whatever happened to being a living Episitle, that is known and read of all men. That men who see your good works, may glorify God thru repentance, "it's the goodness of God that leadeth men unto repentance".

Shouting back and forth, picking up stones etc.. will not do nothing for the kingdom of God.

What would Jesus say, He would say, "LEAVE THEM ALONE, come follow me, learn of me, let me TEACH you how to catch men the way I want men to be caught, and not thru your way of religious entrapments of touch not handle not theology."

Blessings
Karl

 2005/7/25 13:05









 Re: Condemning Homosexuals, is it our place??

THere is a difference between judging something to be sinful... and condemning the sinner. The first is right to do, the second is wrong.

We cant condemn. Thats God's job.

Krispy

 2005/7/25 13:42









 Re: Condemning Homosexuals, is it our place??

Quote:
str8's and queers they all need to be born again ....

Why are we sticking our nose into the world's business? The world does what the world does, it commits good and evil, the church is not called to either, its calling is perfection.

Would there not need to be a radical change in the way a church meets, for this to have a chance of being true? Isn't part of the 'problem' that believers rarely separate themselves to the Lord for prayer and worship, without it being ok for at least some, if not most of the others present, to be uncommitted to Christ? Doesn't this militate against 'the church' hearing from God and having a clear sense of mission [i]outside the church doors[/i], which would enable it to make the distinction between faith and unbelief very clear to those to whom it preaches?

Having said all that, had I not been able to hang around church circles for years, having come from a Christian family, I doubt I'd ever have made the leap. The church would have had to make itself far more accessible to the uninitiated - like meet in a neighbour's house.

Quote:
[b]Jesus only condemned[/b] one group of people, and they were [b]the religious group[/b], they always hindered the work of God and [b]Satan is in the midst of the religious paraphernalia[/b].

This is an interesting statement. My religious background had not protected me from anything you'd find outside the church doors in 'the world'. This was always the problem with those who left Egypt - they brought along their old gods. Unless non-Christians understand that they too have a belief system, which they give up when they turn to Jesus, what will change?

 2005/7/25 13:52
Christisking
Member



Joined: 2005/7/20
Posts: 672
Los Angeles, California

 Re: Condemning Homosexuals, is it our place??

I agree. The "church" is much more comfortable speaking out against the sins of the world, but is closed mouthed and virtually silent when it comes to confronting the sins of the "church". This lends to and is inline with a pious, holier than thou attitude that attracts the proud and offends the meek. I personally am offended!

This “we can point our bony finger of condemnation at you, but you can’t say anything about us” way of thinking is an abomination to a holy and just God and in direct conflict with the teachings of Jesus Christ. If there has ever been anyone throughout history that is guilty of having a log in heir own eye, it is modern western Christianity. (especially this easy believism, syrupy sweet, Joel Osteen, free grace, Rick Warren, seeker sensitive, self help garbage that’s coming out of so many churches today) Judge thyself dear brothers and sisters for judgment begins in the house of the Lord!!!


_________________
Patrick Ersig

 2005/7/25 13:57Profile
saved_matt
Member



Joined: 2005/7/3
Posts: 233
Lancashire, England

 Re:

John 7:24 'Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.' Krispy is right it's not our place to condemn, and were best taking a lesson from the Lord in John 4 the samarian woman who had 5 husbands and was carrying on with another guy. Then we have John 8, the woman caught in the act of adultery, no condemnation there either, so we are not to condemn the people in the world.
Homosexuality is an abomination leviticus 18:22 to give but one example from the old and for effect one from the new in romans 1:26-28.

i heard a guy on the news say the other day that we dont love the sinner as much as Jesus did and we dont hate the sin as much as He did either.

quite true


_________________
matt

 2005/7/25 14:03Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4499


 Re: Condemning Homosexuals, is it our place??

Hello Healingwaters...!

I do believe that Christians should play a vocal role in politics.

I also agree that Christians should do more to reach out with the love of God to all people.

Aa an undergraduate, a classmate of mine had a roommate who was a homosexual. He was not a flagrant "in-your-face" homosexual (like some activists at my school), but he did not hide his lifestyle either. He could often be seen walking across the campus, holding hands with his boyfriend(s).

One day, my classmate, a couple of church friends and I were eating lunch in the main school cafeteria. This classmate and I were discussing an engineering project that we were both involved with. After a little while, his roommate walked up and sat down to dine at our table. As this young man sat down at the table, I introduced myself and shook hands with him. My friends from the church, however, made excuses that they were late for class, and abruptly (and rather awkwardly) left. This classmate and I were discussing our project, while this young man sat quietly listening and eating.

My classmate had an after-lunch class, so he left just before his class began. I stayed to finish my lunch, and I remained sitting with his roommate. We talked about a few things (mainly, how terrible the food was getting in the cafeteria). Suddenly this young man asked, "Aren't you a christian?" I was caught off-guard by his remarks. "Well, yes I am." He went on to say that he has seen me pray for my food in the cafeteria, place evangelical "poster-tracts" on several of the University message boards, and worship using my acoustic guitar outside on the University grounds. I smiled and told him, "Well, I didn't realize that it was quite so noticable."

He then awkwardly asked me, "Well, you know that I'm gay?" At first, I was caught off-guard by his comments. I replied, "Yes, I do."

"And you are still going to eat lunch with me?" he asked. I told him that I had no problem with eating with him. He told me, "I thought that you would have a problem with homosexuals." It was a very awkward moment.

I smiled and told him that, while the Bible is clear that homosexuality is a sin, it is no more sinful than adultery or fornication. I said that while Hell is a penalty for sin, [i]any[/i] sin would take us there. I went on to tell him that the greatest sin in the world is the neglect of God and the sacrifice of his Son by the very people He created to fellowship with. I explained that Jesus loves him -- despite of his sin. I explained the plan of salvation to him as I would to any person.

After our conversation, he thanked me for being kind. We walked out of the cafeteria and went our seperate ways. That evening, he sat down at my table in the cafeteria to eat again. Again, my church friends abruptly left again.

Over the next few weeks, this young man ate with me regularly. I began to notice that he would bow his head when I gave thanks for the food. Yet I also noticed that my church friends began sitting elsewhere during meals.

One day, I was confronted by a couple of church friends. One guy asked me how I could knowingly sit with a homosexual? I became quite flushed with anger by the question. I told him, "Well, I have been sitting with you and you openly gossip nearly everyday!" I apologized for saying this, and explained, "Look -- homosexuality is wrong. But how can we [i]reach out to them[/i] with the truth if we [u]never[/u] [i]reach out to them[/i]?"

As time went on, my church "friends" (who lived quite "loose" christian lives) began to tell others that I was not being a "good witness" at school by eating with such people. They accused me of being "soft on sin." Even my pastor approached me about this. He told me that my conduct at school reflected on the Church, other Christians and on Christ himself.

At first, their comments bothered me. But then I started realizing that I should not be ashamed for reaching out to anyone. I continued eating in the cafeteria, and would welcome this guy anytime he wanted to sit and talk. We talked about alot of things, and hardly ever mentioned homosexuality. We actually talked about the Bible and God very often, with this young man bringing up the subject most of the time. Eventually, I stopped eating in the cafeteria (the food was rather awful), and so I seldom saw this guy anymore. I did see him around campus from time-to-time, and I would greet him whenever I saw him.

Less than a year ago, I didn't have time to grab a bite to eat off-campus, so I went to the cafeteria. I noticed this young man sitting with a girl in the cafeteria. I sat down beside them and they both greeted me. He introduced her as his [i]girlfriend[/i]. Over the course of the conversation, he told me that they had met in church. I was quite surprised that he was even going to church. He turned to his girlfriend and told her that I was the person who introduced him to Jesus. I was very surprised, and told them congratulations on their courtship. Before I left, they invited me to attend a Bible study in her parents' home.

I've often wondered what would have happened had I [i]not[/i] sat with this young man. I didn't realize that our lunches and dinners were so important. I never prayed with him (other than for our food). He did ask me to pray for a few needs that he had, but I always did that alone in private. Looking back, I am actually happy to have endured some of the gossip for the sake of this young man's soul.

It is so sad that many people in the Church neglect people because of sin. I've seen people tossed out of churches because of sin (such as sexual immorality), or even because of rumors of such sin. Yet I have never seen this hatred for sin applied to "lower sins" (like gossip, lying, backbiting, etc...). It seems that there is quite a bit of self-righteousness applied in many churches.

A young man was thrown out of a church that I attended for getting his girlfriend pregnant (who happened to be the daughter of an elder in our church). The leadership of the church warned people to stay away from the young man. Of course, the young lady is received with open arms. The young man is now at "wit's end" because he was rejected by the very people who should have received him with forgiving arms! He had admitted and repented of his sin, but that wasn't quite good enough for the church. It appears that the church didn't want to be perceived as being "soft on sin."

God help us to love all people -- and reach out to them with the love of Christ!


_________________
Christopher

 2005/7/25 14:34Profile









 Re: Condemning Homosexuals, is it our place?

Quote:
Then we have John 8, the woman caught in the act of adultery, [b]no condemnation there either[/b], so we are not to condemn the people in the world.

Actually, the Pharisees should have brought the man, too, and everyone in this story was aware of that, but this has fallen away from being common knowledge in the church today. (I'm not sure modern man thinks much differently :-()

Also, when Jesus did not condemn the woman taken in adultery, in no way did He suggest adultery was ok.

He told her to 'go, sin no more' - which is an outright condemnation of what she had done. But He separated her from her sin, that she might cease from it.

This is how repentance and forgiveness works. It separates us from our sin. This indeed is the work of the Holy Spirit and it is wonderful in our experience. :-)

About not condemning the people in the world, we have the Lord's word that they condenm themselves by unbelief. (John 3:18, 16:9)

Does our testimony attract them to faith in Jesus Christ?

 2005/7/25 14:43









 Re: Condemning Homosexuals, is it our place??

ccchhhrrriiisss,

Thank you [i]so much[/i] for your testimony in this matter.

Words fail me about the young man who is being excluded, especially as he is the father of the child to be born.

 2005/7/25 14:51
ellie
Member



Joined: 2005/5/25
Posts: 189
UK

 Re: Condemning Homosexuals, is it our place??

I am not going to say a lot.

Thankyou healingwaters for your Posting. I am reading and learning from your posting and all the reply's.





ellie

 2005/7/25 17:49Profile









 Re:

Saved Matt wrote:

Quote:
Homosexuality is an abomination leviticus 18:22 to give but one example from the old and for effect one from the new in romans 1:26-28.



I agree with portions of your letter.

The above statement I do not, yes it is an abomination. But John doesn't say, "Behold the lamb of God that taketh away the abomination of the world". Rather he calls it sin, it's all lumped together as one, because it's all disobedience to God. Whether you lie and cheat on your income tax or two men sleep together, it doesn't matter, sin is sin.

But more importantly, Christian churches have no idea how to deal with homosexuality, the more they avoid it the more it's becoming a problem in their members.

Thats why Jesus said, "Judge not lest you be judged, for in the same judgement you judge, you will be judged"

This is a remarkable statement, and I have found this to be true in my life. I would judge someone about a particular thing, and I found myself doing the very same thing.

Christian churches comdemning homosexuals are finding that within their own churches their is a great problem in this area.

John wrote, "He came not into the world to condemn the world but that the world thru Him might be saved"

The world was already condemned when He came, so why add more to the fire? God who is rich in mercy and grace, sent the world a very special offer that is irristable and one that could not be refused.

Yet the religious leaders and those who clung to it, rejected it. Even Paul told the Jews that it was necessary that the gospel should be told to you first, but seeing that you put it behind you we turn to the gentiles, and when the gentiles heard that, they rejoiced.

The religious crowd who are condemning sinners are reeking havoc on the true body of Christ, they did it in the first century, they will do it again. They dragged the prostitute before Jesus, and they are dragging the homosexual before Jesus today. God help us to broaden our understanding and give us a greater vision on His plan for this hour.

Thanks for your post Matt
Karl

 2005/7/25 23:17





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