Santa Clara, CA
A little edit there...
Note Philologo's comments as well, looks as they came in at the same time. Thank you Ron.
Perhaps another thing I forget to mention is the matter of [i]'where our head is at'[/i], at any given moment in this walk. The books we read or our reading at the time will give more emphesis to different areas and would be expected to generate our thoughts outward from that. And of course all things ought to lead to our reading of the scriptures themselves, not necessarily 'by themselves'.
| 2005/7/26 12:09||Profile|
I am not afraid to rebuke the wicked nor to contend for the faith once delivered to the saints, but as a life-long interferer in other people's jigsaw puzzles I am slowly learning the wisdom of those verses which say
James 1:19 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath:
James 1:20 For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.
This is good wisdom Ron.
I think it important to note that sometimes the company we keep can greatly influence us to follow a multitude to do evil. Case in point, as a young believer I recall listening to Hendrick on the Bible Answer Man broadcast and learned how to shred heretics. Then he started shredding folk of the full Gospel persuasion. Problem was, guys at my work listened to him to and took the stuff they learned from Hank and used it upon me. This caused serious division among a non-denominational bunch of guys that met together every Thursday for bible study. We were in unity and walked in love until that program came along.
Guess what? I was ready at this point to level anathema upon the program and would pray for God to deal swiftly with the man (thats the NEC version of what I prayed). About that time, my dad who had been an alcoholic for 25 years and was delivered started listening to Hank! WHEEEW! He started asking me, Have you ever heard of the Bible Answer Man? Ummm! Uhhh! Gulp! Yes, I have. Well I been listening to him and....
Guess what? God used that man to help awaken my dad from his careless state and help bring him to conviction. In time he quit listening to him as he grew in the Lord. Actually he quit listening when he was on in the car once and the radio started smoking! I'm no fruit cake, and neither is he, but that was all he needed to leave off with that. That was waaayyy too much strife being sown unnecessarily.
What am I saying? Don't destroy someones faith who may have came to Christ through some of these means. God can use hank and God can use Benny or Rick (ouch!). God can speak through a mule! Why did our Lord not forbid Judas to speak? He knew he was a devil! I, like Ron would like to purge the body of all this madness, but...
In time my dad was able to sort through who to and not to listen to. Yet in the early stages you can rip up the tare and take the wheat with it.
Robert Wurtz II
| 2005/7/26 12:14||Profile|
your post was an answer to prayer for me. I tend to struggle between both sides, should I or shouldn't I? When you have discernment it gets difficult to know where you draw the line and what you are responsible for. Though, my main concern is to bring people to Jesus.
I think we can point out false gospels by proclaiming what is true, stating what is false, but not having to mention names or ministries.
In His love, Chanin
| 2005/7/26 12:26||Profile|
| Re: Ricky Warnin'|
Wow. I'm really surprised by this thread. I'm pentecostal, I believe in the fundementals--but i also evangilize the neihborhoods and such. I guess according to Ricky I'm a skitzo-christian who doesn't know who he really is! :-(
Glad Jesus cleared that whole thing up when he saved me by his atoning, virgin born blood, as i read about in the ifflable scriptues!
Anywho, think about this gang. PDL is the most talked about book since Jabez. The quotes that now don the back of the book are no longer from Billy Graham and various others from the Christian Community, but from liberal media like USA Today, NT Times etc. I think it was Ravenhill who said that the world could not get along with the holiest person to walk the planet--what makes you think it will get along with you. What makes me really wonder is this:
Time Magazine ranked Rick Warren (who is a pastor) the most influentual evangilist today. Wow. All it takes is selling 20 million copies of you latest book too! i'm on my way, my book is almost done! just my two cents.
BTW my book is entiltled: The Secret Prayer of Jabez Concerning The Purpose Driven Cotton Candy Gospel Poison Causing millions to be Left Behind Reading the TNIV" It'll be a best Seller ! (j/k) :-P :-P :-P
| 2005/7/26 12:54||Profile|
I agree with you Chanin, but only up to naming names and ministries. I agree with Mike that if names are not named, then there can be confusion. Paul named names. It's right in scripture the names of those he was dealing with. And if we dont name names, sooner or later someone will ask... "who is it that teaches this?"
It's not a personal attack to mention someone who teaches a heresy. Notice I have not talked about Rick Warren as a man. I dont know him. I also have not called him a heretic... (I've implied it, but not stated it) But if we merely discuss his teachings without naming him, how will anyone know what to avoid?
Scripture says to mark and avoid false teachers. How does that happen if they are not named?
They are the ones who take these teachings to the public. If they dont mind putting their name on their teachings, then there shouldnt be any problem examining what they are propogating.
Chanin, this would actually make a good discussion... consider starting a thread about this... should we name names? I encourage you to start it. Pose your question, and if you have a conviction about it, back it with scripture. I think it would be a great discussion.
| 2005/7/26 13:19|
BTW my book is entiltled: The Secret Prayer of Jabez Concerning The Purpose Driven Cotton Candy Gospel Poison Causing millions to be Left Behind Reading the TNIV" It'll be a best Seller ! (j/k)
Now that's funny, brother!
But ya know... you're post also has a very serious side, and it's exactly what I am trying to say. Well done.
| 2005/7/26 13:23|
Paul named names. It's right in scripture the names of those he was dealing with.
Paul was an apostle and spoke by infallible revelation. His 'namings' were not personal opinions.
| 2005/7/26 13:39||Profile|
Los Angeles, California
"Paul was an apostle and spoke by infallible revelation. His 'namings' were not personal opinions."
When talking about unsound doctrine and false teachings of Rick Warren, Benny Hinn, Joel Osteen, Peter Popoff and the such...isn't it a matter of Scriptural knowledge and understanding more so then someone's personal opinion?
When some teacher or pastor is leading others down a path the Bible teaches us leads to hell, our opinions should go out the window and we should stand up and speak out agaist these "angels of light"
I don't think anyone knows Rick Warren personally enough to even make a personal opinion. If they do they should keep it to themselves. As for me I not concerned with personal opinions - I'M CONCERNED WITH THE TRUTH OF THE WORD OF GOD BEING TRUMPETED FORTH TO A DEAD AND DIEING WORLD! not some watered down modern version.
| 2005/7/26 14:00||Profile|
Philologos, out of much respect for you I say this with fear and trembling... but that's not a good argument against naming names. Scripture (written by Paul) says to MARK false teachers. When something is marked, everyone can see it. It doesn't say mark teachings... it says teachERs.
And yes, it should not be our opinions... it should be weighed agaisnt scripture.
| 2005/7/26 14:03|
Quote: "Paul was an apostle and spoke by infallible revelation."
Ron, You are scaring me.
There's the perfection of Christ and then there's the imperfection of the rest of us. Paul could no more be infallible than the rest of us. This is where I have significant problems with biblical interpretation; attributing demigod status to fallen humans, so that the Bible can be called infallible. It puts everything on shaky ground. I would rather live with some doubts about the Bible while trusting in the faithful love and forgiveness of Christ than to buy the trumpeting of the infallibility of the Apostles (great men and women as they were.)
The presence of the Holy Spirit in the here and now is enough proof to me of the Truths and Perfect Sacrifice of Christ Jesus.
| 2005/7/26 14:50|