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 Rick Warren's revealing comments

I'm posting a portion of a transcript from a conference called "The Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life", and the entire transcript can be found at http://pewforum.org/events/index.php?EventID=80

Now, I'm wondering if anybody besides me has a problem with how "fundamentalists" are characterized by Mr. Rick Warren. I will comment at the bottom of this post...

[b]FROM THE TRANSCRIPT[/b]

MR. WARREN: Now the word "fundamentalist" actually comes from a document in the 1920s called the [i][b]Five Fundamentals of the Faith[/b][/i]. And it is a very legalistic, narrow view of Christianity, and when I say there are very few fundamentalists, I mean in the sense that they are all actually called fundamentalist churches, and those would be quite small. There are no large ones.

MR. WILLIAMS: Bob Jones is not a mega-church?

MR. WARREN: No, no, no, no, no, no no. Bob Jones is not a mega-church. That's right exactly, it's not, [i]and that group is shrinking more and more and more[/i]. On the other hand, Pentecostalism and charismatic evangelicalism is growing by leaps and bounds. It's growing huge all over the world. And so that's the movement that's growing.

MR. WILLIAMS: What's the difference between a fundamentalist and a Pentecostal?

MR. WARREN: A fundamentalist would deny the miraculous today. They would – for instance, one of the hallmarks of a Pentecostal would be praying for miracles of healing and speaking in an unknown tongue and things like that. Those would be hallmarks of Pentecostalism and fundamentalists would say, "Oh no, all that stuff died at the end of the New Testament." [i][b]They would not accept the miraculous today[/b][/i].

MR. WILLIAMS: So what's the difference between you and the fundamentalists?

MR. WARREN: Well, I don't agree with that. I believe there are miracles today.

MR. CROMARTIE: Let me give you a quick answer to that. The difference between an evangelical and a fundamentalist is an evangelical is someone who really, really, really likes Billy Graham. A fundamentalist is someone who thinks Billy Graham is a liberal.

MR. WARREN: That would be true. A fundamentalist basically would look at many others in Christianity and say, "You're not even a Christian." They'd say it about Lutherans, Methodists, Presbyterians, Catholics. You know – even evangelicals. It's interesting – maybe 15-20 years ago, Falwell stopped calling himself a fundamentalist, and actually left the fundamentalist fellowship, and he went and joined the Southern Baptist Convention – which is as wide – I mean you can find anything in that.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

My comments...

Mr. Warren says: [i]Now the word "fundamentalist" actually comes from a document in the 1920s called the [b]Five Fundamentals of the Faith[/b]. And it is a very legalistic, narrow view of Christianity...[/i]

So am I right in concluding that Mr. Warren is saying that if you are a fundamentalist, meaning you believe in the [b]Five Fundamentals of the Faith[/b], then you believe in a "very legalistic, narrow view of Christianity"?

This is what the [b]Five Fundamentals of the Faith[/b] are:

1. The Deity of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2. The Virgin Birth.
3. The Blood Atonement.
4. The Bodily Resurrection.
5. The inerrancy of the scriptures.

I'd be interested in know what Mr. Warren considers to be legalistic and narrow in this list.

Mr. Warren says: [i]when I say there are very few fundamentalists, I mean in the sense that they are all actually called fundamentalist churches, and those would be quite small. There are no large ones. [/i]

Is Mr. Warren saying that numbers are what matter? If a church or a movement is small, then God is not in it?

Mr. Warren says: [i]Bob Jones is not a mega-church. That's right exactly, it's not, and that group is shrinking more and more and more. On the other hand, Pentecostalism and charismatic evangelicalism is growing by leaps and bounds. It's growing huge all over the world. And so that's the movement that's growing.[/i]

Sooo... again, if something is shrinking in numbers, then Mr. Warren is suggesting what?

Mr. Warren says: [i]A fundamentalist would deny the miraculous today.[/i]

This is certainly not true. While many fundamentalist do deny tongues and healing (as in the gift of healing) for today... many do not. And I know of NO fundamentalist who deny miracles today, especially as it pertains to healing. I've seen many healed miraculously, but I dont buy into the Benny Hinn style of healing.

Mr. Warren says: [i]A fundamentalist basically would look at many others in Christianity and say, "You're not even a Christian." They'd say it about Lutherans, Methodists, Presbyterians, Catholics[/i]

This is only partly true... but partly false. There are many Methodists & Presbyterians & other denominations that DO preach biblical salvation. (In fact... Mr Warren shows his ignorance here because many reformed Presbyterian churches are VERY much findamentalist!) What fundamentalist do refuse to accept is that churches such as the Catholic church preaches the same salvation message that the Bible preaches. THEY DO NOT. They preach a different message than that found in the Bible. There are churches within denominations that teach Biblical salvation while the denomination as a whole does not. Methodists are one such denomination. Mr. Warren's generalizations are borderline offensive... and ignorant.

But Mr. Warren doesnt care... call yourself a Christian, then you are a Christian... it doesnt matter if you dont believe salvation by grace and not works.

Mr Warren says: [i]Falwell stopped calling himself a fundamentalist, and actually left the fundamentalist fellowship, and he went and joined the Southern Baptist Convention – which is as wide – I mean you can find anything in that. [/i]

I'm not going address Falwell here, but I do find it interesting that in this discussion Mr. Warren used the terms narrow and wide. Narrow if you are a Bible believing, saved by the blood believer. Wide if you are accepting of liberal doctrine and those who are not saved according to the Biblical definition of the term.

Narrow is used negatively... wide is used positively.

Thats completely backwards from scripture.

Scripture says: Mat 7:13 & 14 [i]Enter ye in at the strait gate: for [b]wide[/b] is the gate, and [b]broad[/b] is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because [b]strait[/b] is the gate, and [b]narrow[/b] is the way, which leadeth unto life, [b]and few there be that find it[/b]. [/i]

Narrow is used positively ... wide is used negatively.

One other thing about this transcript that really struck me, Mr. Warren repeatidly called those who agree with him as "intelligent" and "thinking people". This implies that those who do not agree with him are not "intelligent" and do not "think.

Anyone wish to share any thoughts on this?

Krispy

 2005/7/25 10:15
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re: Rick Warren's revealing comments

Hi Krispy
you do pick 'em! ;-)
fundamentalism is term which has had quite a history. Fundamentalism was a 'reaction label' meant different things to different people. JI Packer wrote a book entitled Fundamentalism and the Word of God explaining why he did not think 'fundamentalist' was now a useful label for 'conservative evangelicals'. It is a good book to read and not long; there is an [url=http://www.ucalgary.ca/~nurelweb/evang/packer/fundi-1.html]excerpt[/url] here which should give you a flavour of the discussion.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/7/25 10:53Profile









 Re: Rick Warren's revealing comments

Quote:
Anyone wish to share any thoughts on this?




yeh, labels such as "fundamentalist", "pentecostal", "liberal", "conservative", are just man's small attempts to pigeonhole and categorize one another in a continuing vainglorious effort to understand one another.

a waste of time.

Fix your thoughts on Jesus.

what am I?

a fundamentalist? a pentecostal, a pre-trib dispensationlist? it's all soul sickness, and the dreary drab poo of the world wrapped up in theological nonspeak.

I'm a follower of Jesus.

so what is it today? Tear Rick Warren up? We got done with Joel last week, now its Rick's turn?

I asked you before who in the faith you LIKED, and you gave me a terse answer...."Spurgeon and Keith Green", without any reason why, what it was about their walk you liked and wish to emulate. We get paragraphs and paragraphs ripping guys apart....

I've been reading about four men, whom I just admire in the faith, David Brainerd, John Sung, Evan Roberts, and Duncan Campbell, and besides their annointed, devoted and sold out private prayer ministries, what really MADE these men was their monofocus ON JESUS.

I'm giving ya pearls.

 2005/7/25 11:07









 Re: Rick Warren's revealing comments

This is what the Five Fundamentals of the Faith are:

1. The Deity of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2. The Virgin Birth.
3. The Blood Atonement.
4. The Bodily Resurrection.
5. The inerrancy of the scriptures.

Perhaps Rick Warren hasn't read the F5 of Faith, and if the Charistmatic/Pentecostal movement is what is growing without the F5's what are the 5 fundies they go by?

I thank God that my Father told me to get away from all of it.

Good to see you again Steve.

Karl

:-)

 2005/7/25 12:22









 Re:

Actually Pentacostals and Charismatics do affirm the 5F's. This is why I wonder if Warren knows what he's talking about because he brings that up... but then says the main difference is that Pents believe in miracles today, Funds dont. This is true as it pertains to sign gifts... but it doesnt make sense what he says. The transcript goes on to praise the RCC... but the RCC doesnt believe in the sign gifts for today either... officially.

It's nothing more than confusion.

The RCC does not affirm the 5F's. The RCC does believes that scripture was inspired, but it's not infallible because it can be over-ridden by the Catechism.

It also does not believe in blood atonement... it believes in blood and works atonement. So Warren, a Protestant, chides Christians who hold to the 5F's (funds), but praises the RCC that does not. He critizises groups that hold to a Biblical position on salvation, and praises an organization (RCC) that preaches "another gospel".

Confusion! He's one of the most influential Christian leaders in the Western Hemisphere... this must be discussed.

Anyone who doesnt think this is laying the foundation for a One World Church has to really think about this. This has prophetical implications.

By the way... nice to talk to you again, Karl!

Krispy

 2005/7/25 13:26









 Re:

Quote:
by KrispyKrittr on 2005/7/25 13:26:01

Confusion! He's one of the most influential Christian leaders in the Western Hemisphere... this must be discussed.

Anyone who doesnt think this is laying the foundation for a One World Church has to really think about this. This has prophetical implications. [/b]



Very good post Krispy. Thanks.

"Try all things - test all things - "watch" - Etc."

If you wouldn't mind me giving a link or two.

The first is an article, going along with what you've said http://www.crossroad.to/charts/millennium-goals-peace.htm ... and if you type his name or 'purpose driven' into her Search Engine, found on her Homepage, you'll get lots ... also the Search engine at www.deceptioninthechurch.com . Just for two.

There's lot more confirming your thoughts, but these two would do for now. If ya want more, just holler.

Thanks again.

 2005/7/25 15:07









 Re:

Thanx Annie... I think it's pointless to fight against a One World Religion. Scripture says it will happen, and therefore, it will. Thats not to be our motivation as far as I can tell. But what we need to do is bring this stuff to light so the people (Christian or non-Christian) are not decieved by what is coming.

There are some who are against that, as evidenced right here on this thread. But like I said, one would have to be blind to not see whats going on.

But most Christian are too lazy to check things out for themselves. We just accept that Warren is selling lots of books in the Christian bookstores and at Walmart, and his church is growing and growing... so it must be ok.

"Few are those who find it..."

Narrow thoughts from a very narrow gospel.

I'll take narrow.

Krispy

 2005/7/25 15:27









 Re:

Just wanted to mention, I'm not avoiding Neil's questions in an earlier post. I have determined not to respond to him at this point in time.

This applies to any other threads as well.

Krispy

 2005/7/25 15:36
hredii
Member



Joined: 2004/8/1
Posts: 218
Fresno CA

 Re:

Quote:

KrispyKrittr wrote:

Confusion! He's one of the most influential Christian leaders in the Western Hemisphere... this must be discussed.



Yes I do believe this does need to be discussed also. I remember a year or two ago that the church body that I attend on Sundays went the (PDL) Purpose Driven Life book and right after that I started to realize that this is something a little different. It did not match Biblical Christianity. I am sorry if that offends anyone that is not my intent. I you all beloved of God graciously allow me to share my testimony with you. It seemed very similar to Biblical Christianity. Slowly I started finding more out about the movement that Rick Warren is apart of is leaven that can leaven the whole lump. The thing I have noticed is that it is very very subtle.

This man Rick Warren is a very influential Christian leader and his books are being read in many churches. Also churches are having 6 week series of sermons based from the PDL book and also churches are having Sunday school lesson strait out of the PDL book (It makes for great discussions). Some churches are even rethinking how they have church and are starting to go by Rick Warren’s ways, because his church has something right.

I am deeply concerned with the way Warren is leading multitudes of Christians. I am afraid of what may happen in the future with this movement. Watchmen, people of God this is a call to pray. Yes we need to lift up our voice but also and much greater is the call to pray. If you have read through all my post please, I beg you to pray about this before you click to the next page on the internet.


_________________
Adam Fell

 2005/7/25 19:17Profile
HopeinHim
Member



Joined: 2005/7/25
Posts: 1


 Re:

First, I believe that this forum is one of the places where this kind of dialogue is so very appropriate. Second, I appreciate the differences and how you each "speak" to one another. I even agree that Rick Warren is preaching a very watered down message. It angers me and it offends me. As he and others begin to market their agendas and methodologies, it even strikes me as "sordid gain".

My question, in regards to this topic, is this:

Is it appropriate to "preach" this type of rhetoric? I am in such a quandry. Sunday after Sunday, we are hearing the bashing. Not that it isn't true, but is it TRUTH?? Every Sunday, we hear how bad televangelists are, how bad J. Osteen is, how bad Jesse Duplantis is, how bad Rick Warren is. We hear how bad tradtional denominations are getting, how bad mega-churces are, how bad typical church goers are... and I am not exageratting!! This has been going on for months! AND we are also hearing, over and over, how we must live above reproach and how, if we are not living this perfect life, then we cannot have fellowship with Christ. I do not disagree that I am a sinner. I do not disagree that light and dark have no fellowship. I do not disagree that I must strive to live a life above reproach. But I am so tired of being beat to death!! I have almost lost HOPE!!

I don't mean to hijack this post... and if this is not the appropriate place to pose this question, please re-direct me.

Hope

 2005/7/25 20:26Profile





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