| End Time Revival?|
Recently I have been wondering about some of the stuff I've been taught regarding an end time revival, I'm not much of a Biblical scholar so I'm unaware of any in-depth doctrine derived from scripture regarding the possibility of a forth coming world wide revival other than verses such as Haggai 2:9 [b]The glory of this latter house shall be greater than of the former, saith the LORD of hosts: and in this place will I give peace, saith the LORD of hosts.[/b].
But I've also heard recently that the Bible says there will be a great apostasy in the end time but no great revival, the great apostasy is obvious for anyone with any amount of spiritual discernment but what of the revival?
Just wondering is this doctrine (a great revival surpassing all previous revivals just before the Lords iminent return) derived from scripture or a bit of 'end time wishful thinking'?
| 2005/7/24 7:26||Profile|
| Re: End Time Revival?|
This isn't easy to say, cuz it's not the greatest news in the world, but on an individual basis it can be.
There will be what 'appears' to be a great revival, and we're sort of in the midst of it now, but it's leading to something that the Word calls, well, I better put it milder than that ... it's leading to the end time false religion... where 'religions merge and marry politics'.
Those, as you say, who have fallen away from the truth in the apostasy, don't necessarily "back-slide", but a lot of them form the group that Jesus told us in Matt. 23 Mark 13 & Luke 21 will persecute the Elect ... for a while, until The Beast, turns on this false 'church' they're forming.
BUT ~ Daniel says, in the last days, the Saints/or Elect, will do exploits ... though their number may be few, in comparison, and though many will pay with their lives ... for not compromising Truth.
Joel also talks about HIS Spirit being poured out on those in the last days ... but the difference is, they - the elect - have separated themselves from the world and have "come out from among them" and are Overcomers, though severely persecuted for it.
But whenever we think of persecution, we should remember when Stephen was stoned ... how the GLORY of God was on him and he Saw Jesus [u]standing[/u] at the right hand of The Father, [u]for him[/u] - (Normally, Jesus is 'sitting').
Whenever Saints of old and even now in other countries are persecuted ... God's Presence is on them in such a way, that in many accounts, they begin to Sing and Praise.
I don't know if this answers this for you Matt, but that's what I see in His Word.
And also seeing what is called "Personal revivals" happening with folks, in their own personal relationship with Jesus & who love His Truth and have 'counted the cost'.
| 2005/7/24 22:15|
| Re: End Time Revival?|
This verse from Matthew 25, first off, clears up much:
 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
Anyone that says anything about such and such showing that Christ will come in X number of years is acting as if they have an insight we don't. And the latter days refers to the New Testament period (you may know this, but others may not). America, and many other places, have seen revival in the latter days. Anyone telling you that you can't have one now, is repeating what the disciples themselves were saying, but Christ rebuked their thinking in John 4:
 Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest.
The reason we are not having revival is only because of one reason, that Christians are not doing what God commands. They think that revivals will start with the reforming of sinners, but read the message from II Chronicles 7, concerning those called Christians:
 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
I believe that we should seek for a revival today, in ourselves first off. I think that the Holy Spirit can be outpoured once the conditions are met. The problem is, the average church goer is more concerned with a ball than with winning a neighbors soul (and I put that on myself, too).
I think that Acts 2 fulfilled the prophesy of Joel 2:
 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions
But I don't think that this means we are limited in any way from seeing the same thing today.
Great sermon on the subject on this site is "If My People," by Curtis Hutson:
| 2005/7/24 23:29||Profile|
Hi Lets get busy,
Are you saying that you do not believe we are living in the last days ?
I just want to be sure I understand what you're saying.
Matt. 25 is an excellent chpt along with chpt 24, that the Lord gave us in order that "we would not be ignorant" as Paul would say, about the last days ... and all that was written in the N.T. prophetically was for the purpose of the very words Jesus said many times, "Watch", as in watch the signs ... as the first verse you quoted says.
In 2Peter chpt 3, if we read the whole chpt, we see again the Lord giving these similar "thief in the night"/ "not knowing when" statements, but the "not knowing when" is for those who are Not Watching (like the 5 foolish virgins that included the verse you gave Matt 25:13), (if you read the whole of these Chapters,) but 'knowing when' is for those who Are "watching" as He commanded.
1Th 5:1-6 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
[u]But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.[/u]
1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. (as the 5 wise virgins)
Joel 2 also must be read in context or in the entirety of it's chpt.s. It is also futuristic.
There are prophecies that are dual prophecies.
It's dangerous to pull a verse out of context. The original books of the N.T. in Greek, didn't even have punctuation marks, nonetheless Divisions of chpt.s and verses. We can't rightly divide truth by dividing verses from their context.
If you have an e-sword or some other Bible program, do a multiple Commentary search on John 4:35.
Anyhow, I'm a strong supporter of Missionaries, evangelism and a strong burden for the lost ... but since Israel became a nation and all that's happened since ... and following the International News and eschatological prophecies closely, I believe God's Word, that we are in the last days.
Once His eschatological clock started ticking, then we're to 'watch' all the more closely to the signs He and Paul and Peter and John were good enough to leave for us. That does not mean we are to cease to "Occupy till He comes".
I'm in full agreement, as I said above, that Personal Revival is more than necessary, and without saying, a deep burden for souls should accompany that, if it's real, but if God has a nation targeted for judgment, in the 'prophetic' scheme of things, He won't 'heal that land' ... whatever land that may be.
2Chron.7:14 was written to Israel, the only 'covenanted' nation that God promised to heal, then and in the end.
Main point to close. Verse pulling without the full meaning of the previous and following verses can cause trouble.
Thanks for letting me share my heart.
| 2005/7/25 1:10|
Thank you both for your advice in this area, it was just that on at our friday night Bible study the man preaching said that the Bible talks about a falling away but not a great revival of the TRUE church, but then yesterday sunday i heard Carter Conlon's latest message called 'What does it take to see God' where he says he can prove conclusively from the Scriptures that there will be an end time Revival of the ture church, also B.H. Clendennen who only has a few sermons on this site, firmly believes this and says quite openly 'Jesus is not coming back for a broke down religious machine but a bride worthy of Him who has made herself ready'. I agree with you Lets get busy that no man can know the date or the hour of Jesus' return, but i do think we are living in the end times, of course though i wouldn't put a date on it i heard recently a man give the date of 2018 for the second coming thus 2011 for the rapture of the church i wouldn't agree with putting a date on the either event i do believe the true church will be raptured 7 years before the Lord's return, but my intention in posting the question was not to try an pin a date onto what is taught in the Bible, but rather to ask if there will be massive true revival prior to the rapture or just a falling away and the true church being snatched up before the tribulation.
But at the end of the day we follow Christ and not men an everything were told has to be examined in the light of His Word, just thought i'd check to see if this is taught in the Bible
again thank you
| 2005/7/25 8:25||Profile|
Cache Valley, Utah
Please let me say a word.
We don't know how 'large' the bride will be, except that many will say on that day, "Lord, Lord" and will be turned away, and that only a few find the narrow gate. Also, we know of a great falling away. Drawing my own conclusions, I believe the bride that Jesus returns for will be smaller than we might originally think, yet I also believe the bride will be spotless, blameless, perfect and beautiful...
i do believe the true church will be raptured 7 years before the Lord's return
And this is where I believe there is error, brother. Remember all the many Scriptures that mention the refining of gold, and the perfection of quality by means of trial, tribulation and fire? This is just that, and God's plan to sanctify His Church. The seven years of tribulation will purge the Church, refine the gold, burn away the dross... and in doing so, there will be a great falling away, and great persecution, but I like what someone posted already: In the time of martyrdom there is great rejoicing.
I would caution people to write off the tribulation period by saying the Church will not endure it. Jesus said when He returns He will seperate the sheep from the goats... and we know Christ will return ONLY at the end to destroy the ant-christ and establish His kingdom. Anything other than this suggests three comings of Christ. If you are not expecting a period of great testing, you may actually go right through it without knowing and be swept away into apostacy, waiting for the "secret rapture" and then, behold, the trumpet will sound and it will be too late.
Christ warned the disciples to endure to the end. He warned them of the time 'like no other time before', and told them of the signs before His return. The fact is, He told his disciples, and meant for them to be watching, ready, alert, and not to be found SLEEPING when the bridegroom comes calling! These are serious warnings that do not fit with the "secret rapture" premonition... and this concerns me greatly.
Dear saints, wake up and watch and pray that you will not fall into temptation. The end will be more subtle then believed, and only those who are watching, praying, and who have plenty of oil in their lamps will be able to stand through to the end, to the glorious end that is Jesus Christ returning to claim His Kingdom!
| 2005/7/25 8:53||Profile|
thanx for your post, hmmm, this is an interesting debate (pre, post, mid trib rapture) i realise it's one of those ones that can go on forever I've kept out of the 'can you lose your salvation?' forums that seem to be going on at the moment too.
I realise on reflection of what you wrote Eli that you think i am looking for a masive pre-rapture move of God, this is not the case, my pre-trib belief has nothing to do with my original question about an end time revival, i believe that the pre-trib position is clearly taught by the new testament and that types of the rapture are in the old testament too, you say that the church will be refined in the tribulation, is this to say then the church is not being refined already? look at china, we in the west are the ones who are asleep and for the most part and need to wake up an realise Jesus is comin get busy.
I believe the great tribulation is when 'Hell is let loose on earth' the antichrist reign's for 7 years (Daniel 9:25). The Old tetstament types i refer to are that of Noah, Lot and family, etc.. the Lord never judges the righteous with the wicked He always removes His 'remnant' first.
That is what i believe He will do with the church too before judging the earth as is seen so clearly in Revelation chapters 6-18.
Sorry I just believe that if we are looking to Christ NOW as the Author and Finisher of our faith we wont pass through the tribulation.
To finish i once heard a preacher say that if the rapture was not pre-trib it means that we will be looking for the antichrist before the Christ.
another preacher said whether pre, post or mid trib, the same Lord thats kept him for 70 years will keep him another 7 no matter what.
hope this straightens out my beliefs a bit i have to admit i'm terrible at this kind of debating ;-)
| 2005/7/25 12:13||Profile|
| Re: End Time Revival?|
I love debates too, but communication lives and dies by using words which have an agreed meaning amongst all the debaters.
The word 'remnant' [i]means[/i] that which is left over after the major part of it has been removed - my paraphrase - a 'remnant' of cloth is all that is left of the original many yards on the bale, for instance.
Quote:The word 'remnant' appears frequently in the Old Testament. Are you able to back up your interpretation of it, with a few verses? Thanks.
He always removes His 'remnant' first
| 2005/7/25 12:36|
my apologies dorcas
perhaps 'remnant' was the wrong word,
I merely meant the 'few' as in 'many are called few are chosen' matthew 20:16 & 22:14, matthew 7:14 '...the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.' i realise this is not from the OT i merely meant that in the OT before sending judgement the Lord saves His righteous 'few'.
sorry for the mix up i'll choose my word more carefully from now, thanx for the correction.
I do feel that we are getting away from the original question i posted,
'Is an end time revival of the Church scriptural?'
| 2005/7/25 12:52||Profile|
Cache Valley, Utah
Yes, I understand that that wasn't your original question and I apologize for shifting the focus. I was just making a comment on your pre-trib notion and the fact that few will be saved in the end.
As for your reply though, I do disagree with you, but also am not interested in debating it (at least on this thread). Jesus did say that the anti-christ would come before Him, so I don't really see an argument there... sorry, I'm still getting ahead of myself.
End time revival? Maybe. I believe with all my heart that revival can still take place, in my city, in my country, whatever, but to say that there will be a massive revival that sweeps the world... hmm. This is just my thought on it.
As we draw closer to the end, I believe things are going to get a whole lot worse before they get better.
PS- Yes, agreed, the church is being refined now, but not the whole body yet.
| 2005/7/25 13:47||Profile|