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Discussion Forum : General Topics : Salvation Can Be Rejected and Lost

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Christisking
Member



Joined: 2005/7/20
Posts: 672
Los Angeles, California

 Re:

WB,
I like what you are saying and believe your are correct.

Here is a link to some good information.

[url=http://www.thesearchforbiblicaltruth.org/seach_for_the_truth_004.htm]http://www.thesearchforbiblicaltruth.org/seach_for_the_truth_004.htm[/url]

The tenth animated online etract is called The Burning of Michael Servetus

Be sure to click on the link Read the whole, fully documented story or John Calvin and Michael Servetus at the bottom of the etract.


_________________
Patrick Ersig

 2005/7/26 14:14Profile









 Re: Understanding John Calvin

Quote:
Why do we always have to 'circle the wagons' and 'wink, wink' at John Calvin's hideous [b]sin of murder[/b] so smugly condoned by large sections of the church?

This is something that needs to be exposed to earnest seekers of truth. Instead we have this culture of 'fear and loathing' which is promulgated to keep the facts hidden.

Seeking the truth in all things, in peace,

Hi wildbranch, seeking the truth in all things, in peace,

I have three questions.

How do you get past the fact that Moses and David were murderers?

Do you know why Calvin, a Frenchman, left France?

Could you please glance at the chapter titles of his Institutes of Religion, and then say if you can be a little impressed by his enthusiasm for the word of God?

[url=http://www.ccel.org/c/calvin/]http://www.ccel.org/c/calvin/[/url]

Thank you.

I found this

'Public criticism of those responsible for his [Michael Servetus's] execution, the Reform Protestants in Geneva and their pastor, John Calvin, moreover, inspired unitarians and other groups on the radical left-wing of the Reformation to develop and institutionalize their own heretical views. Widespread aversion to Servetus' death has been taken as [u]signaling the birth in Europe of religious tolerance[/u], a principle now more important to modern Unitarian Universalists than antitrinitarianism.'

here.

[url=http://www.uua.org/uuhs/duub/articles/michaelservetus.html]http://www.uua.org/uuhs/duub/articles/michaelservetus.html[/url]

What was shocking about this, is that a reformer died at the hands of reformers, but, in those days, to refute the Trinity was risky, as was to reject the divinity of Christ. And, those sprinkled as infants who later took believers' baptism, were also being executed. I'm not clear as to why this particular 'due process' causes such controversy, seeing we cannot go back and fix it. Isn't it more important that we search the scriptures ourselves, and find a better way?

 2005/7/26 16:00
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Listen friends,

I only raised my hand to speak because I felt you were engaging in partisanship instead of fellowship. I know we really want to be faithful to the knowledge that God has given to us. I can be challenged and convicted by your knowledge of scripture and even more importantly your own life...yet the moment you start in with opinionated protests all I hear is clang clang clang.

I appreciate that some of us came from bad 5-point Calvinist experiences. Some of us came from bad Arminian experiences. So what do we do with these antidotes? Vilify each other?

Worse...do we make cartoons of each other’s beliefs? Do we say that Calvinists believe in "Security with license to sin?" or that they don't believe in sharing the gospel even though these are absurd distortions? On the other hand do we glibly say that Arminians don't believe in the sovereignty of God or that they lower the holiness of God...both of which are gross misrepresentations?

Being the organizational creatures we are we have polarized into two streams. One following the free will of man and the other the sovereignty of God. Both are unassailable truths. Alas, our little cortexes don't have enough bus speed to keep both of these programs running at the same time so we default. If truth is really what we are wanting we should be thrilled because here we have two truths!

But this debate is not about truth. It's about certainty. These struggles are manifestations of our need to be certain about our faith...even if I have to rob others of their certainty. We have been given one facet of the diamond and make the mistake there aren't any more.

Well, one day we shall find our certainty in whom it truly exists. Not in the collected facts of our doctrines, for my computer holds those and my computer does not know God. There is one gospel...most of it is revealed in brief letters given to the churches.

So let's keep debating these scriptures, even with the passion and emotion of people who really care about the gospel as I know all of us do. ...but if we can't understand someone let's not resort to making a cartoon of them and denouncing their beliefs.

If you really want a good debate just let me know which “side” I should be on. I can argue either side with equal passion and reasonable skill. They both work, as long as you "Sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts".

MC





_________________
Mike Compton

 2005/7/26 17:35Profile
Servus
Member



Joined: 2005/6/18
Posts: 17


 Re:

Here's the problem: We're here to discuss the scriptures in search of the truth. When we attack someone or accuse them, they become no more willing to listen. Hence telling them what you believe the scriptures are telling you becomes a waste of time. It becomes like talking to a brick wall. If you know for a certainty what you believe is the truth, then speak it. Once you have spoken it, it is NOT your responsibility to prove to them and MAKE THEM believe it as well. Either they will believe it or they won't. People cannot know the things of God unless God reveals it to them. If God reveals it to them then you do not need to make them believe by arguing with them. And if God does not reveal it to them, Then they will not believe it either, arguing with them then becomes a waste of time. It is our job if we see an error, to go and point it out... if people do not heed our voice, then we have done our part.

Eze 33:7 So thou, O son of man, I have set thee a watchman unto the house of Israel; therefore thou shalt hear the word at my mouth, and warn them from me.
Eze 33:8 When I say unto the wicked, O wicked man, thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
Eze 33:9 Nevertheless, if thou warn the wicked of his way to turn from it; if he do not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.

Humility is the key. We really shouldn't be basing this discussion on Calvin anyway. The discussion isn't what Calvin believed or didn't believe... it's what the Bible says on this issue. If you're here to discuss issues based upon what you believe, or what you think, rather than getting into the bible and showing what it says... then you are merely wasting your time. You can believe what you believe all you want, but if it is merely based upon opinion, you are wasting your time. We have gotten extremely side-tracked from the topic of this conversation. This thread is a discussion of whether or not a man can lose his salvation, so let's get back on track and start getting into the BIBLE about it, and stop fighting about what Calvin did.

In Christ ~Shaun


_________________
Shaun

 2005/7/26 20:19Profile
yblek
Member



Joined: 2004/7/2
Posts: 35


 Re: AMAZING! ALMOST 1000 people have some to view this!

First of all, writing in this form is very difficult for people to read the emotion or feeling behind what is being said. IF ANYONE HAS BEEN OFFENDED I ASK YOU TO FORGIVE ME! My intention was NEVER to harm anyone's feelings in any way! It is, however, important that you know what you believe and why. TOO MANY CHRISTIANS ARE SITTING IN THE CHURCHES NOT EVEN CHECKING OUT WHAT THE PASTORS ARE SAYING IS TRUTH! Make sure you ALWAYS take your Bible and study the context of what is said from any message. We have too many "new" revelations being preached that take the Scripture totally out of context!

Praise God WE KNOW JESUS!

Kelby


_________________
Kelby

 2005/7/27 1:01Profile
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Quote:
We're here to discuss the scriptures in search of the truth. When we attack someone or accuse them, they become no more willing to listen. ...Humility is the key. We really shouldn't be basing this discussion on Calvin anyway. The discussion isn't what Calvin believed or didn't believe... it's what the Bible says on this issue...This thread is a discussion of whether or not a man can lose his salvation, so let's get back on track and start getting into the BIBLE about it, and stop fighting about what Calvin did.


Sounds good!

MC


_________________
Mike Compton

 2005/7/27 3:28Profile
yblek
Member



Joined: 2004/7/2
Posts: 35


 Re: This has been very interesting!

We need Jesus to be proclaimed in such a powerful way right now in the world! He has COMMANDED us to proclaim the good news of Christ, it is not an option. However, how many times a day do we ignore the opportunities or being led by the Holy Spirit to share who He is? I pray those opportunities will become realities as we share the Good News that Jesus Christ died for ALL and ANYONE can be saved! Praise God, He is NO RESPECTOR OF PERSONS!


_________________
Kelby

 2005/7/30 5:03Profile
MrBillPro
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3172
Texas

 Re:

Quote:

Servus wrote:
Here's the problem: We're here to discuss the scriptures in search of the truth. When we attack someone or accuse them, they become no more willing to listen. Hence telling them what you believe the scriptures are telling you becomes a waste of time. It becomes like talking to a brick wall. If you know for a certainty what you believe is the truth, then speak it. Once you have spoken it, it is NOT your responsibility to prove to them and MAKE THEM believe it as well. Either they will believe it or they won't. People cannot know the things of God unless God reveals it to them. If God reveals it to them then you do not need to make them believe by arguing with them. And if God does not reveal it to them, Then they will not believe it either, arguing with them then becomes a waste of time. It is our job if we see an error, to go and point it out... if people do not heed our voice, then we have done our part.
In Christ ~Shaun




Wow! Now that is powerful!! and I totally agree that is why it's called the "living word of God" so each scripture can minister to each of us in different ways, and if you try and read a scripture and figure out what it is ministering to you without the help of the Holy Spirit to me personally it would be in vain, so how can one say to another what this scripture is saying to anyone other than the person reading it? :-?


_________________
Mr. Bill

 2005/7/30 10:11Profile









 Re: Savlation can be lost or rejected - re revelation

Quote:
if you try and read a scripture and figure out what it is ministering to you without the help of the Holy Spirit to me personally it would be in vain, so how can one say to another what this scripture is saying to anyone other than the person reading it?

Don't forget, each sentence of scripture has a basic grammatical meaning which should be taken in context. And we should make every effort to understand that plain meaning, in that context.

What me or you or anyone cannot account for, is the [i]additional[/i] meaning which is significant to that one reader only, at a deeper level, which the Holy Spirit may bring. It may be that until several levels of meaning have been received by the reader, they don't really 'get' what God it trying to say. Some verses won't make sense till other verses do, because they are conveying spiritual meaning, mainly. Whereas, some of the historic accounts of Bible people, teach us much, as we understand how God cared for them and they believed Him in desperate moments.

In principle, directing fellow believers to a living relationship with Jesus Christ, is more help to the kingdom of God, than testing our grasp of doctrine. Doctrine is like a great transparent globe, in which many cross-cross-references must all hold together in a single entity called 'Biblical truth'. While this is a great exercise for minds, it may be a distraction for some.

Here is an article worth reading - the first 5 paragraphs on balance, at any rate - An Honest Heart by A W Pink. [url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=1115]http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=1115[/url]

 2005/7/30 10:44
MrBillPro
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3172
Texas

 Re:

Quote:

dorcas wrote:
Don't forget, each sentence of scripture has a basic grammatical meaning which should be taken in context. And we should make every effort to understand that plain meaning, in that context.



Yes, I do understand that sorry I guess I should have said that also, I just went beyond that should have started out a little simplier with my statement.
Thanks
Bill


_________________
Mr. Bill

 2005/7/30 11:20Profile





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