Hm. Again I stand firm on my view. You can reject the Good News therefore never receiving the gift. But if you were sincerely & truly held in the bossom of Abba, can we all understand, that there is NOTHING that can seperate us?
God's love surpasses ALL sin, all transgressions, all acts, all praise, all shouts from the heart, there is nothing good that doesn't hangs on this one thing: God is love. But that has been said over & over, & time & again that it has become cliche. But can we fathom His love? Can we, who have finite minds, understand this very simple concept: His love, mercy, grace is endless.
Seems simple, but NO man can truly understand this for we have minds that are banked.
For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels or demons, neither the present or the future, not any powers, neither height or depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to seperate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
This written by Paul to the Romans.
Can we understand this? Forget about Calvin. Forget about doctrinal "truths". Let us let go of ALL things. Can we understand this simple truth?, that nothing in all of His creation can seperate us from the love that is found in Christ Jesus. When one TRULY finds His love, it is IMPOSSIBLE for even God Himself to seperate you. That would make Him the author of pure lies. Abba would cease to be God. But O! How I rejoice in knowing that He is a faithful & trustworthy God.
In His Name
Arnaldo Santiago, Jnr.
| 2005/7/25 22:41||Profile|
One thing that I don't understand is how we can even discuss anything that John Calvin said or taught, given the fact that he was a murderer, thus totally discrediting him from even entering the discussion.
I think it would not be an understatement to say John Calvin has done more to harm Christianity then any other man.
Brothers, please...if we ever want to know a good reason why revival tarries...here it is. By these rash comments you have just severed Spurgeon, Edwards, the Puritans, Chafer, RC Sproul, George Whitefield, Wayne Grudem, AW Pink, Robert Reyond, Tony Evans and many other true saints from the body. Or perhaps you have severed yourself from the body they belong to... it is you who are isolated.
"If however, you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another". Galatians 5 15."
We have been around and around this mountain before. Please give the search function a try...
Good advice. The other threads as I remember them were centered on discussions and not distortions.
You know there was a time when I thought about Finney the way some of you feel about Calvin. Then I realized that inspite of theological differences, Finney was many times the desciple I probably ever will be.
Although conversation at Sermon Index tends to zig and zag abit, it has always done so across the line of orthodox evangelical Christianity...the faith handed to us by historic saints from many centuries and countries. Unlike many Christian communities, Sermon Index has walked the Arminian/Calvinist division with balance, grace and respect so that the higher goal of revival could always be paramount. The stream of bitterness forming in this thread can't be received by many of the saints that come to this watering hole looking for something to drink.
Not to overstep my place, but if you feel called to be an anti-calvinist perhaps there are other forums where saints nibble on the carrion of slander and pride. This is a place for healthy meat.
This is all too sad. I thought the scriptural commentary Servus had posted earlier was worthy of much consideration, but brothers, you make me want to call myself a Calvinist just to be distinguished from the biting and devouring you demonstrate.
| 2005/7/25 23:57||Profile|
In my opinion, Calvin's teaching is very wrong but I don't believe just because you are a Calvinist you are on your way to hell.
There are many subjects in the scriptures that Christians have different opinions on. It seems to me that my opinions are right, but I've noticed that I've never met a person that there isn't something they believe that is of a different opinion than myself. Some people have opinions that are almost the same as my opinions but there is always a point somewhere that we differ.
Maybe my opinions are wrong sometimes!
| 2005/7/26 0:50||Profile|
| Re: So I eat meat huh?|
Paul warned of false teachings in the last days (refer to 1 Timothy 4:1). The spirit in which you attack me makes me wonder your heart in this matter. I married a woman who came out of a five point Calvinist church that was so dead and is still dead today because not one effort is being made to reach the lost for Jesus Christ. The tragedy is they think they are following God's directions and commands. You must really think that false teaching is acceptable within the church! I will never accept a teaching that basically has me telling others of what Jesus did for them on the cross, but really He didn't because He didn't die for them, but just the "elect." I am not an anti-Calvinist. I am against anything that takes the attention away from the Gospel going forth. I believe true five point Calvin doctrine is going to create a lack of reaching the lost for Christ. As far as some of those you mentioned (which you claim I have eaten as carrion). I have read and contain many of the sermons and writings of great revivalists like George Whitefield who did not allow being a Calvinist to keep him from preaching in the rain for hours. Stories were told that people would wake him up from his sleep to have him preach to them in the early morning. Rain could be pouring down upon them, but they wanted to hear this man of God. Benjamin Franklin credited him as one of the most incredible men he ever met. I agree with what George Whitefield said once, "I do not aim at the head when I preach, but at the heart." AMEN! The problem is when teachings that lead a WHOLE church to not have even ONE missionary going to another country or NO ONE going to tell others about the good news of Jesus Christ. Now, I am sure not all Calvinist churches are this way. I even know a few who are not Calvinist churches which are just as in need of revival too. I am trying to clarify the fact there is only one correct interpretation of Scripture. Taking the WHOLE Bible in context, Calvin did not communicate the true Word of God correctly. He did have multiple people burned to the stake for disagreeing with him, I hope you will not do the same with me! Calvin desired to know the truth of the Word of God like all of us do, but failed. Just as Paul had to confront believers who found the Lord Jesus as their Savior, but wanted to go back into following the law to be saved by circumcision. He was very strong and rebuked those who would teach such things. He even confronted Peter in Galatians 2:13-21 because he was wrong. Be careful of just naming names to say that Spurgeon was more biblically correct just because his name was Spurgeon. Peter was the first preacher of the new church on the Day of Pentecost, yet errored in his teaching, which Paul corrected him. If people are not open to looking at the truth, the use of this forum is then lacking. I am not about to tell you I know all of what Scripture contains, that I have a greater insight into the Word of God than those you mentioned. I do, however, consult the author on these issues and He directed me to the truth on this topic. The Bible states to seek the Holy Spirit for direction and that HE would lead us into all truth.
If people want to believe in a God that has predestined people to go to hell and limit my Jesus's atonement to a select few, they can chose so. There are Christians that believe the Great Tribulation is something they will have to go through and do not even believe in a rapture. I believe if you want to stay here, God will allow you to do so. I believe the best way to interpret the Word of God is not man's opinions, but what He said. There is no way my God who I love and serve would ever allow me to go out and lie to the world about Him dying for their sin when actually He only died for the select few. Read the whole Bible and see if that is anything that my God is truly like. I think once you take those verses that are used to support such a false conception of God out of the way and place them in the context God intended, you will see the truth.
Brother, I pray you would know my heart. I want a revival like a man who is dying in the desert for a drink of water. It has been far too long since a fresh move of God has come to America. I believe we both can agree on this much. America needs Jesus Christ deseparately. I could careless if you are Calvinist/Baptist/Methodist or Allofthis! I want God to set the captives free, to populate heaven with as many souls as possible. If you think I have isolated myself, that is your opinion (many did that with Finney too). I feel I am in good company with many others who have the same heart beat for America. I apologize if you are offended. I am sure Peter did not take the rebuke from Paul easy either. I just know God wants everyone to be saved and the church continues to sleep allowing multiple millions upon millions to died in their sin. Repentance must happen NOW! GOD HEAL OUR LAND. GOD WE TURN FROM OUR WICKED WAYS AND PLEASE COME HEAL OUR LAND!
God Bless YOU
Because of Him
| 2005/7/26 1:07||Profile|
| Re: Calvinists ARE NOT going to hell!|
I do not believe or could ever think that! I am not sure where you picked that up. Error is going to happen, but if you trust in the Lord Jesus Christ as your personal Savior you WILL BE SAVED! NO ONE HAS THE RIGHT TO JUDGE A PERSON'S SALVATION DUE TO DOCTRINAL BELIEF! The only clear teaching for salvation is to accept Jesus as the Messiah and make Him Lord and Savior of your life!
| 2005/7/26 1:11||Profile|
| Re: Of respect|
It is worth trying to understand what was going on in 16th century Europe, before singling out Calvin for criticism. We have no idea how we would stand up to the persecutions he witnessed, where many died at the hands of those seeking to establish their credentials with Rome.
EDIT added: When he began writing, there were very many more than 5 points in his definition of Biblical truth. And, you would agree with many of them.
I'm not sure how it got reduced and can now be called 'false teaching' but I accept that's where we are today. Blaming Calvin for where we are today, over 400 years since his original work, [i]may[/i] be slightly unfair, though! :-P EDIT ended.
Quote:I thought so too, as I'd never heard those verses expounded lucidly together.
I thought the scriptural commentary Servus had posted earlier was worthy of much consideration,
Quote: This is a beautiful waltz tune, but the words which go with it - the only place revival can start, I believe - pack a punch. :-?
Unlike many Christian communities, Sermon Index has walked the Arminian/Calvinist division with balance, grace and respect so that the higher goal of revival could always be paramount.
[i][u]Search me, O God[/u],
And know my heart today;
Try me, O Savior,
Know my thoughts, I pray.
See if there be
Some wicked way in me;
Cleanse me from every sin
And set me free.
I praise Thee, Lord,
For cleansing me from sin;
Fulfill Thy Word,
And make me pure within.
Fill me with fire
Where once I burned with shame;
Grant my desire
To magnify Thy Name.
Lord, take my life,
And make it wholly Thine;
Fill my poor heart
With Thy great love divine.
Take all my will,
My passion, self and pride;
I now surrender, Lord
In me abide.
O Holy Ghost,
Revival comes from Thee;
[b]Send a revival,
Start the work in [u]me[/u][/b].
Thy Word declares
Thou wilt supply our need;
For blessings now,
O Lord, I humbly plead[/i].
I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. (NASB, NKJV)
| 2005/7/26 1:18|
I was under the assumption that these forums were for discussing issues so that we could learn together. Why then do so many of these lead to arguments? I have noticed a little friction starting to build up here. If we're going to discuss issues then it should be done humbly and with meekness, not with a pointing accusatory finger.
Every time I read and reply to these forums, I stop and pray before I do so. I take time to think about what people say, even if I disagree with them. There is always something that can be learned from someone, no matter how different their doctrine is. I ask right now Lord that you will guide this discussion and help us to remain peaceful and handle ourselves worthy of being called children of God. Help us to learn through our sharing of scriptures. Help us to be humble as we take the time to discuss your word. In Jesus name I pray, Amen. I ask at this point if you are reading this that you just take a moment and pray as well and ask God for wisdom, patience and humility before continuing with any responses. Let us stop this argument before it even starts.
Always in Christ Jesus ~Shaun
| 2005/7/26 4:09||Profile|
I was under the assumption that these forums were for discussing issues so that we could learn together. Why then do so many of these lead to arguments?
This is the exact reason I recently left a wonderful Bible study group I used to attend, My Spirit could not handle the sometimes heated discussions, we had some there that wanted the scriptures to mean what they said they meant and had a zero tolerance to any mutual agreement. I don't have the answer for why some Christians have a zero tolerance to believing that a scripture just might not mean what they seem to say it does, but I haven't met many "including myself" that has some point in life tried to get the meaning of a scripture to fit their needs or what they wanted it to mean to justify their lifestyle or personal belief, but I finally got over that attitude and have since moved on, now my walk is closer to the Lord and a lot easier.
| 2005/7/26 9:17||Profile|
if you feel called to be an anti-calvinist perhaps there are other forums where saints nibble on the carrion of slander and pride.
On the contrary, Compton, I do not wish the brethren to feed on the carrion of doctrines contrived by murderers.
Why do we always have to 'circle the wagons' and 'wink, wink' at John Calvin's hideous sin of murder so smugly condoned by large sections of the church?
This is something that needs to be exposed to earnest seekers of truth. Instead we have this culture of 'fear and loathing' which is promulgated to keep the facts hidden.
Seeking the truth in all things, in peace,
| 2005/7/26 9:53||Profile|
but brothers, you make me want to call myself a Calvinist just to be distinguished from the biting and devouring you demonstrate.
Sadly, Compton, you have chosen to [b]identify with[/b] Calvin, rather than identify Calvin for what he is.
"If however, you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another". Galatians 5 15."
A serious warning, but used out of context in your post. Remember that Calvin ordered the [i]slow[/i] burning of Michael Servetus, ensuring that green twigs were added to the fire - the ultimate in 'devouring and consuming'.
| 2005/7/26 13:58||Profile|