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Discussion Forum : General Topics : LOCH NESS MONSTER (You started it)

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letsgetbusy
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Joined: 2004/9/28
Posts: 957
Cleveland, Georgia

 LOCH NESS MONSTER (You started it)

This forum is anything under the sun, so...

We have heard about UFO's, Please post if you have ever seen anything in the water that is not recognized by "modern science," or any opinion related.

I believe leviathan is a real account of a sea creature, and behemoth is a Biblical account of a dinosaur. I also believe there are many species of aquatic creature yet to be discovered that could be classified as "sea monster" (huge squid, huge shark, huge reptile, etc). Remember they thought the lobe-fin fish was extinct for millions of years (our ancient relative via index fossil, right?).


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Hal Bachman

 2005/7/24 0:47Profile
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 Re: LOCH NESS MONSTER (You started it)

I have an interesting theory about dinosaurs. Actually, I may have posted this in an earlier thread, but I don't think that I have heard anyone else teach it.

The Bible teaches in Genesis (chapter 3) that it was the serpent who beguiled the woman in the garden. As a penalty of his actions, God cursed the serpent to craw upon his belly all the days of his life. Thus, the serpent at one time [i]did [u]not[/u][/i] craw on his belly. In other words, [i]the serpent's belly was above the ground[/i]. What would a serpent that walks above the ground be called?

We know that this serpent was Satan. In Revelation 20:1-2, we see that Satan is referred to as "...the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan..." Here, the passage is equating the "old serpent" as a "dragon." Now, what is a dragon? Perhaps it can be thought of as a giant lizard -- or even a "serpent" with legs.

This is also found in other passages as well. "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him." Revelation 12:9

Many Bible dictionaries state that the word "serpent" in the Old Testament refers to all reptiles, such as snakes, lizards, alligators, crocodiles, turtles, etc... (since the word "reptile" does not appear in the King James Version).

[b]Is it possible that the serpent, as mentioned in the Genesis account of Creation, was actually a dinosaur (or dragon)?[/b]

[u]Modern science (flawed that it may be) holds the following premises[/u]:
1. [i]Dinosaurs existed[/i]. There are literally hundreds of thousands of fossils that serve as evidence.
2. [i]Dinosaurs disappeared suddenly[/i]. The theories concerning their disappearance have been explained as anything from a [i]sudden ice age[/i], to an [i]meteor[/i] or [i]comet[/i] that might have impacted the earth.
3. [i]Dinosaurs are the "pre-evolved ancestors" of modern reptiles[/i]. Scientists sometimes point that some dinosaurs are the ancestor of certain types of snakes and lizards. There are snakes that resemble in form and feature dinosaurs of long ago. This includes spitting snakes, snakes with expanding necks, "hard-nosed" snakes, etc... There were dinosaur ancestors to many lizards and turtles as well.
4. [i]Fossils are the result of catastrophe[/i]. If an animal dies -- it (including its bones) completely decays over a period of time. Fossils, however, are the results of animals or plants that somehow did not completely decay. In most cases, they are remains that were trapped in sediment -- which eventually turned into rock.

It is very rare that complete fossils of large, living creatures are preserved. Even with all of our modern caskets and burial preparations, if people were to dig up our bodies in 10,000 years, they will most likely see very little evidence of a human being. Most likely, future archeologists would see only the [i]dust[/i] remains of a human being. But somehow, many fossils of dinosaurs have been found.

Is it possible that, when God cursed the serpent (also referred to as a dragon), that all dinosaurs were suddenly lost from the earth? What is a dragon? The description of a "dragon" resembles a "dinosaur" quite a bit! The remains of the preexisting dinosaurs would not have decayed much through bacteria (because such decay did not occur as rapidly since the world was new). This would allow many large bones to remain until the Great Flood -- trapping bones in the layers of sediment necessary for fossilization.

Anyway, this is just a possible theory that could explain the disappearance of dinosaurs, the fossilization process of dinosaurs on a "young earth" -- as well as the "scientific evidence" of any link between dinosaurs and modern serpents or reptiles. As I mentioned, I have never heard anyone else teach this. I suppose that any number of theories could be correct (from the natural extinction theory -- or the "dinosaurs-were-too-big-to-fit-in-the-ark" theory).

Any ideas or comments about this?


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Christopher

 2005/7/24 2:32Profile
Compton
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Joined: 2005/2/24
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 Re:

Quote:
Is it possible that the serpent, as mentioned in the Genesis account of Creation, was actually a dinosaur (or dragon)?



I'm doubtful that the serpent was a dinosaur simply because it crawled on it's belly like a snake. While the Bible is not clear as to whether or not the serpent stood up or walked before it was cursed it appears likely that like other reptiles it probably did walk on four legs. That would seem to be the best explanation of Genesis 3:14, “The LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this, Cursed are you more than all cattle, And more than every beast of the field; On your belly you will go, And dust you will eat All the days of your life.”

I do sometimes wonder if dragon myths are in essence human civilizations long forgotten memory of dinosaurs. Certainly the bones of dinosaurs have given rise to stories of dragons.

Regarding the scriptures I think the bible does mention dinosaurs. (I'm not dogmatic about this...just that it makes sense to me.) The most convincing case of a dinosaur in the scriptures must be the Behemoth of Job 40:15-24. The description of this animal does not fit any living animal.
It “eats grass like an ox.”
It “moves his tail like a cedar.” (In Hebrew, this literally reads, “he lets hang his tail like a cedar.”)
Its “bones are like beams of bronze,
His ribs like bars of iron.” (Ever see a large dinosaur fossil mount?)
“He is the first of the ways of God.” (Don't know what this means but it feels impressive!)
“He lies under the lotus trees,
In a covert of reeds and marsh.”

This sounds like it could be a large sauropod plant-eating dinosaur. (Remember the Brachiosaurus that sneezed on the kids in Jurassic park?)
Quote:
Dinosaurs are the "pre-evolved ancestors" of modern reptiles. Scientists sometimes point that some dinosaurs are the ancestor of certain types of snakes and lizards.



Not to sound like a Bill Nuy the Science guy or anything,:smart: but Dinosaurs are not really regarded by evolutionists as direct ancestors of modern reptiles...but rather extinct relatives. Furthermore, paleontologists are in a state of disagreement currently (surprise) as to whether all dinosaurs belong to reptiles or in a separate class of "Dinosauria". While they were related to reptiles, many scientists think they were warm blooded and that their living descendants aren't reptiles at all...they're birds.

In fact, more and more evolutionary scientists are now classifying birds (Aves) as a clade within Dinosauria. Accordingly, many scientists now regard birds as living dinosaurs. Right on cue, in the last 10 years there have been multiple fossils discovered showing small therapod, turkey sized dinosaurs, with feather imprints in China. Personally I am skeptical...the first one was a spectacular fake that embarrassed National Geographic magazine a few years ago.

There are two reasons I feel justified in remaining skeptical about these new fossils. One is that they all come from the same geographic area, and secondly they didn't start popping up untill after the dino-to-bird theory had won over the scientific establishment. (I mean, for 150 years we have collected thousands of dinosaur fossils...why didn't any of these have feather impressions?)

However, these fossils leave us with a question. What if, in fact, some dinosaurs did have small feathers like the modern Kiwi bird? Does that prove evolution? Or doesit just prove that some dinosaurs had small feathers like a Kiwi bird?

MC


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Mike Compton

 2005/7/24 3:15Profile
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 Re:

I've read several of the theories about the Leviathan and Behemoth, but they still seem to refer to earthly animals. I've often read that the leviathan was a crocodile, and the behemoth was an elephant (with its trunk being the "cedar"). But even if they do refer to dinosaurs -- the Bible doesn't refer to the time frame unto which God was talking with Job about.

About the supposed "evolutionary link" between dinosaurs and modern reptiles -- I am not much of an expert on that. I was just writing some of the things that I remember being taught from a few biochemistry and chemistry classes while working on my bachelors a couple of years ago. Of course, my professors were all athiests and evolutionists, too. As an engineering student, I didn't find those classes particularly interesting either.

But you are correct in stating the possibility that they may merely be similar designs, rather than particular species. But I still am leaning toward my "serpent/dragon = dinosaur" theory. The Bible is clear that the serpent was a dragon (or at least equates them as the same entity). A dragon also bares the closest resemeblence to a dinosaur. And we know that they all disappeared. It just sounds like a plausible theory to look into.

BTW, I did share this theory with a biology professor. He was asking me about my faith in Christ, and somehow, he brought up the subject (it appeared that he wanted to ridicule the Bible). However, he actually sounded quite impressed with the idea. He doesn't quite buy into the carbon dating methods (since the half-life is so difficult to estimate...especially if it is based upon flawed but accepted science).

Anyway, I really appreciate your input! I will be studying this further over the next few weeks. Thanks!


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Christopher

 2005/7/24 3:47Profile
philologos
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 Re:

I actually spent a week camped by the shores of Loch Ness with my 14 year old son (as he was then) Nessie-watching. We arose early each morning and spent the whole day in some vantage point. We enjoyed the haggis and neaps, but were chewed to pieces by the authentic Loch Ness monsters - midges.

Of Nessie? not a glimple. :-D


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Ron Bailey

 2005/7/24 4:33Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
We...were chewed to pieces by the authentic Loch Ness monsters - midges.



So I guess your son and you were really itching to see the Loch Ness monster! :-P


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Mike Compton

 2005/7/24 5:50Profile
GaryE
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Joined: 2005/4/26
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 Re: LOCH NESS MONSTER (You started it)

It seems to me that God created the fossil record when he created everything else. We are to walk by faith and not by sight. We are to believe the witness of the Spirit over what we see or taught by often very bright people.

In Christ,
GaryE


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Gary Eckenroth

 2005/7/24 8:33Profile
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 Re:

In that case, we have quite a few "Texas monsters" down here as well. They are quite large, and often cause a terror.

But we call them "mosquitos." :-P


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Christopher

 2005/7/24 12:29Profile
philologos
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Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
So I guess your son and you were really itching to see the Loch Ness monster!

This seems like a varient on the old fisherman's joke.

"Had any bites?"
"covered in 'em!"


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Ron Bailey

 2005/7/24 13:46Profile
letsgetbusy
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Joined: 2004/9/28
Posts: 957
Cleveland, Georgia

 Re:

chris,

I think that you have an intesting theory. Other thoughts: the Scripture describes a fiery, flying serpent in Isaiah, and leviathan from Job has breath that causes the deep to boil and smoke to rise. I don't know if you could prove Satan was a dinosaur, but I don't think anyone could disprove that, either. I have never even thought about bringing that idea into the perspective. Very interesting.

BTW, the 'dinosaurs being too big for the ark' theory is very easily solved. Bring two babies.

As far as Job's account of behemoth, whose tail is like that of a cedar, cannot be matched to the animals listed in our Bible references (elephant, hippo, etc). Do an image search for what a cedar tree looks like. It looks like the tail of a long neck dinosaur. Then look at the tails of those animal's tails and compare. Many believe Job was written before Exodus, as there are no mentions of the Law.


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Hal Bachman

 2005/7/24 14:38Profile





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