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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Question for the scholars - re prophesies of the Church Age

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philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

taco writes

Quote:
This is my point precisly. You were pondering (hypohteticaly) on would there be a church if the gentiles never 'joined'. My point is they were joined at calvary not at cornelious house.

This is still comparing apples with oranges. The spiritual consequence of calvary is an eternal state; the household of Cornelius was a linear event. As a principle, from the moment of the Church's institution, the 'new man' was created, but in actual persons some Jews were added in Acts 2, and some Gentiles in Acts 10.


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Ron Bailey

 2005/7/24 4:16Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

roadsign writes

Quote:
Were not the OT prophets part of that entity, for surely they were led and taught by the Spirit, and understood their need for redemption. Did they not excercise the same faith that is required of us for a Redeemer?
So maybe the Church isn't as "brand new" since Pentacost as we would assume. The difference is that Gentiles were added into it, whereas, in the OT, they were only Israelites (mainly)

It seems like the visible church, now and past, has been dwelling in the Old Covenant to a large extent. That "church" would not come under the promises, as it does not count as the church, am I correct?


we have discussed this point to exhaustion at different times here on the forums. It is linked with whether or not the OT saints were regenerated. The decision taken on that will pretty much set the scene for whether or not people think that 'my church' is a new entity or an old one with some additions.


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Ron Bailey

 2005/7/24 4:21Profile









 Re: identifying 'the Church' in scripture

philologos, please could you clarify these points for me?

Quote:
It is linked with whether or not the OT saints were regenerated.

Hebrews 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, [b]received not the promise[/b]:
40 God having provided some better thing for us, that [u]they without us should not be made perfect[/u].

Does 'the promise' include everything - the Seed, The Atonement, the Resurrection, the baptism in the Spirit, or, just one item on that list (eg the baptism in the Spirit) or, is there something else?

By 'regeneration' do you mean this regeneration?

Titus 3
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, [b]by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy [/b];

In the light of Romans 5
1 Therefore being [b]justified by faith[/b], we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 By whom also we have [b]access by faith[/b] into this [u]grace[/u] wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

is the key to understanding 'church' in scripture, implicitly in an acceptance of its defining factors being outwardly different, yet hanging on the central spiritual truth that 'faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God'?

This would make sense of God's continual search for those who will 'hear' His [b][i]voice[/i][/b] and [b][i]obey it[/i][/b], His original request to Adam and Eve, reappearing many times in different relationships with the individuals who complied (Heb 11) while the outward terms of compliance were likewise continually changing - eg build an ark, make a Tabernacle, walk round Jericho and so on.

According to Hebrews 11:40, are even those who had not received 'the promise' [u]made perfect[/u] and included in
Hebrews 10
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14 For by one offering [u]he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified[/u]. ?

Or, were the OT 'saints' not 'sanctified' in the same way a we are? Is there [i]any[/i] difference between righteousness through faith before Christ and after Christ? (I don't think so, but maybe there [i]is[/i], but, it just doesn't [i]matter[/i].)

I have at least one more question, but should wait to see if I understand the answers to the foregoing, I think.


 2005/7/24 10:45
taco
Member



Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 211


 Re:

Quote:
This is still comparing apples with oranges. The spiritual consequence of calvary is an eternal state; the household of Cornelius was a linear event. As a principle, from the moment of the Church's institution, the 'new man' was created, but in actual persons some Jews were added in Acts 2, and some Gentiles in Acts 10.



hmmmmmmm

Sorry for the confusion (I am not getting what I want to say across very well :-? )

This is basicaly the point I have been trying to make- you are saying it better than I could. That the New Man's existence is not dependant on the actual additon of any specific gentiles (or jews for that matter).I have been simply addressing your hypothetical question about gentiles not coming on board.

Here is an example - there are no jews in my local assembly but it is still an expression of the one new man. The consequencse of this is that should we see some jews converted we accept them imediatly and not see them as a new "messianic" congregation.

If you believe that the one new man was brought into being as a result of the cross/ressurection; that this body is somthing new; that as a distinct entity it was not explicitly prophesied in the OT. Then we are in agreement.

Or is there somthing I am missing?

 2005/7/24 11:50Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Here is an example - there are no jews in my local assembly but it is still an expression of the one new man.


Yes, I think we are doing the math(s) differently but coming to the same answer. However, this phrase quoted above stirs me. Is a local assembly an 'expression of the new man'? I think the 'new man' is much more than a fusion of jew and gentile into a new fellowship. It is a new nature and stands in contrast to the 'old man'; which is not jew and gentile in separate compartments but something much more ominous. Likewise the 'new man' is something much more than the 'two being made one'.

I am not sure that a local assembly can ever be a full expression of the 'new man' any more than it can ever be a 'bride'. What do you think?


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Ron Bailey

 2005/7/24 13:52Profile
taco
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Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 211


 Re:

I believe that if the local church is gathering together truly in the name of Christ and including all of his people in that area (representitavly) then it is an expression of the New Man- it is an expression of Christ. If he is truly there the head then the body is truly manifest.

Of course it is more than jew and gentile fused; also more than male and female etc etc. Suppose there were a town with only three christians in it. All three were men. They begin to meet together as the Lord's people in that town. Are they a local assembly? I believe so. Now, another town has also only three christians all men, in it. they decide to come together and meet for fellowship. When they first meet they decide that this will be a mens meeting and stay that way. the first group are expressing the Lord's body. In my opinion, the second group are not. Of course they are in many ways-but not to the same extent. I feel this way about groups that gather around race (black/white churches) theology (pre/post dispensationalist churches etc) or practice (charismatic etc). I have no doubt that God is amongst his people in many forms-but Christ is not to be divided. Such groups are in my opinion (most likely in ignorance) not truly gathering on the ground of the local church (to borrow from nee).

Ultimatluy the whole church will be gatherd together into Christ in some greater way than I can imagine. I think though that this is the new Man in its totality not just an expression of it. ( I don't think that I said that the local church was a [b]full[/b] expression of the New Man. Perhaps I am using the term in the wrong way, but in my heart I am utterly convinced that Christ will work through any local gathering of his people as his body in a practical way. This is to me, why each city had a church (as oposed to a branch of the church).

Anyway thats the best I can do.

 2005/7/24 14:55Profile
taco
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Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 211


 Re:

Just a quick PS.

I have been focusing abit on the whole issue of "the two made one". Whilst I don't believe you can have the church without this I certainly agree that the essence of the New Man is Christ (1 cor 12:12). thats why I said earlier that I was wrong to use the word 'essence'in the context that I did.

 2005/7/24 14:58Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Suppose there were a town with only three christians in it. All three were men. They begin to meet together as the Lord's people in that town. Are they a local assembly? I believe so. Now, another town has also only three christians all men, in it. they decide to come together and meet for fellowship. When they first meet they decide that this will be a mens meeting and stay that way. the first group are expressing the Lord's body. In my opinion, the second group are not. Of course they are in many ways-but not to the same extent.


Some interesting ideas here. ;-) but it would be a separate thread I think.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/7/24 16:48Profile









 Re:

Philologos said:
I am not a pretrib dispensationalist, so they may want to correct my interpretation of their view.

Stever's response:

As I have posted before, I take the position of the pre-tribulation rapture. I would like to ask a question, a question that has never been answered by my Brothers who take the position of the post-tribulation rapture, or the mid-tribulation rapture.

When Christ comes to separate the Sheep from the Goats, at his second coming, then why would he even need to separate them? The rapture would have taken care of the situation automatically when the rapture takes place?

God's word tells me that the Saints will come WITH CHRIST and His Angels at the 2nd coming...

Ezekiel 14:5-9
5. You will escape through that valley, for it will reach across to the city gate. Yes, you will escape as your people did long centuries ago from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah, king of Judah, and the LORD MY GOD SHALL COME, AND ALL HIS SAINTS AND ANGELS WITH HIM.
6. The sun and moon and stars will no longer shine,
7. yet there will be continuous day! Only the Lord knows how! There will be no normal day and night--at evening time it will still be light.
8. Life-giving waters will flow out from Jerusalem, half toward the Dead Sea and half toward the Mediterranean, flowing continuously both in winter and in summer.
9. And the Lord shall be King over all the earth. In that day there shall be one Lord--his name alone will be worshiped.


God bless,

Stever

 2005/7/24 20:12









 Re:

Dorcas said:
According to Hebrews 11:40, are even those who had not received 'the promise' made perfect and included in
Hebrews 10
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. ?

Or, were the OT 'saints' not 'sanctified' in the same way a we are? Is there any difference between righteousness through faith before Christ and after Christ? (I don't think so, but maybe there is, but, it just doesn't matter.)
XXXXXXXXXXXX

Stever's response:

THE OLD TESTAMENT SAINTS WERE SANCTIFIED

Hebrews 11:40
40. God having provided some better thing for us

“Oh, to have seen the lions mouths stopped, the parting of the Red Sea, or fire falling from Heaven,” we say. But, in reality, we have experienced something far greater than any of these miracles. The Lord lives in our hearts. He walks with us every moment of every day. He gives direction to us whenever we take time to stop and listen. Although we take all of these things for granted, any one of them would have astounded the Old Testament saints.

Hebrews 11:40
40. …………. that they without us should not be made perfect.

The heroes of faith who preceded us didn’t experience perfection or the maturity we enjoy in the New Covenant, BUT THEY WILL BE WITH US IN HEAVEN! How do you receive this New Covenant? By faith, by saying, “Lord, I too am looking for a better country. And by faith, I’ll see greater things than even these heroes and heroines did because, because they saw awesome events externally, I’ve experienced Your miraculous grace internally, the promise of Your kingdom ultimately, and the promise of your presence eternally.”


God bless,

Stever

 2005/7/24 20:34





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