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philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
as I understand it this (the above) is the essence of the church that Christ is building. A body of jew and gentile with the middle wall being broken down and both being heirs of the promise.


Ah, 'the essence'... what is the essence of the church? I know this is highly hyperthetical but would there have been no church if no Gentiles had responded?
“...the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:” (Eph. 3:4-6)Is this saying that the 'mystery' is the church or that the mystery is that Gentiles would be part and parcel of the same body? The church which is His body was already in existence in Acts Acts 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved. although at this time, as far we know, there were no Gentiles in it.

I do believe the Church is a brand new entity and not just the addition of Gentiles to the old Israel. He made, of himself, (literally 'in Himself') one new man“the enmity in his flesh, the law of the commands in ordinances having done away, that the two he might create in himself into one new man, making peace,” (Eph. 2:15, YNG) As soon as the Jew was incorporated into the body (I am choosing my words very carefully here) they constituted the 'new man' that He had made 'in Himself'.

I think the two into one, is a consequence of the church, rather than its essence.


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Ron Bailey

 2005/7/22 7:50Profile
taco
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Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 211


 Re:

Quote:
Ah, 'the essence'... what is the essence of the church? I know this is highly hyperthetical but would there have been no church if no Gentiles had responded?



But when was the wall of separation torn down and the two made one; was it at the cross or Cornellious' house?

 2005/7/22 7:54Profile
taco
Member



Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 211


 Re:

Quote:
I do believe the Church is a brand new entity



So where is this brand new entity prophesied in the OT?

The Messiah praising God in the midst of his brehtren does not in and of itself prophesy a new entity surely.

 2005/7/22 7:57Profile
jeremyhulsey
Member



Joined: 2003/4/18
Posts: 777


 Re:

Quote:
I think the parenthesis view of Daniel's 70 weeks is pretty well established among pretribbers?



Yes, this is true.


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Jeremy Hulsey

 2005/7/22 8:20Profile
roadsign
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Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re: the Church is a brand new entity

Were not the OT prophets part of that entity, for surely they were led and taught by the Spirit, and understood their need for redemption. Did they not excercise the same faith that is required of us for a Redeemer?
So maybe the Church isn't as "brand new" since Pentacost as we would assume. The difference is that Gentiles were added into it, whereas, in the OT, they were only Israelites (mainly)

It seems like the visible church, now and past, has been dwelling in the Old Covenant to a large extent. That "church" would not come under the promises, as it does not count as the church, am I correct?

I grew up with some dispensational teachings, and, have since abandoned that, as to me, it is a product of the creative, logical human mind. It also seems to color the perception Christians have of themselves (leads to pride, antinomianism, etc). And it erodes the message of the prophets - which I believe is very relevant today.


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Diane

 2005/7/22 8:39Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

taco
these are good and astute questions. The difficulty in answering them lies in the fact that we are dealing with both linear time and eternal states; they seldom mix well. We can see eternal covenants and the great sweep of God's purposes but the 'on earth' outworking of these things had a linear path.

My answers to these questions (which I have asked myself) is really to do with the whole manner of interpretation of prophecy. I am often accused of holding 'replacement theology' although that is not the label I would have chosen for my position. As I read the OT prophecies I find some of them fulfilled spiritually in the arrival of the Church of Christ. I distinguish between the Church of Jehovah and the Church of Christ. (let the feeding frenzy begin... :-? )

Christ's words in Matthew 16 speak of His Church as being future. Matt. 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. This is future tense, while Acts 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved. would seem to indicate that the Church now existed as people are being added to it. The question then is when did it come into existence. In linear time I would suggest that it could not come into existence until the 'living stone' had been disallowed/ rejected by men but then made 'a chief corner stone'. In other words, in linear time, it came into existence after Calvary and the Resurrection. I would suggest that it could not come into being before Christ's ascension in that otherwise we would have had a physical body and a spiritual body of Christ on earth at the same time.

There already was an entity known as the Church before Christ came. The Hebrew word 'qahal' had been translated by 'ekklesia' in the Septuagint. Stephen uses the Greek word 'ekklesia' in to describe this 'entity'; Acts 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us: It came into being at Sinai. The word 'ekklesia' is constantly used in the Septuagint; Deut. 4:10; 9:10; 18:16; 23:1-3,8; 31:30; Josh. 8:35; Judg. 20:2; 21:5,8; 1Sam. 17:47; 19:20; 1Kings 8:14,22,55,65; 1Chr. 13:2,4; 28:2,8; 29:1,10,20; 2Chr. 1:3,5; 6:3,12-13; 7:8; 10:3; 20:5,14; 23:3; 28:14; 29:23,28,31-32; 30:2,4,13,17,23-25; Ezra 2:64; 10:18,12,14; Neh. 5:7,13; 7:66; 8:2,17; 13:1; Job 30:28; Psa. 22:22,25; 26:5,12; 35:18; 40:9; 68:12; 89:5; 107:32; 149:1; Prov. 5:14; Lam. 1:10; Joel 2:16; Mic. 2:5
and the specific phrase 'the church of Jehovah' is used in Num 16:3, 20:4, De 23:1, 2,3, 8, 1Chr 28:8, Mic2:5.
while the 'Church of Israel' is referred to in Lev 4:13,16:17; De 31:30; Jos 8:35; 1Kings 8:14,22,55; 12:3; 1Chr 13:2; 28:8; 2Chr 6:3,12,13; 24:6

The concept then of 'another' Church, my Church, must have been astonishing for his disciples. Were there 'plain predictions' in the OT? Well, were there plain predictions of Jesus of Nazareth? Yes, but they were not plain enough for most to see. I think the Hebrews quotation of Psalm 22 is very significant in the context of Hebrews and the enthroned Christ as High Priest. The writer sees the Ps 22 reference to the 'qahal' or 'ekklesia' as it would have been in the Septuagint as a plain reference to Christ as 'high priest' in the midst of His brethren (us) in the Church. There is plainly a linear path here; “Wherefore it behooved him in all things to be made like unto his brethren, that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.”
(Heb. 2:17, ASV) In linear time this could not be until He had 'become a merciful and faithful high priest'.


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Ron Bailey

 2005/7/22 14:51Profile
taco
Member



Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 211


 Re:

Quote:
In linear time I would suggest that it could not come into existence until the 'living stone' had been disallowed/ rejected by men but then made 'a chief corner stone'. In other words, in linear time, it came into existence after Calvary and the Resurrection.



This is my point precisly. You were pondering (hypohteticaly) on would there be a church if the gentiles never 'joined'. My point is they were joined at calvary not at cornelious house. This was simply the first manifestation of that joining. This is what I was getting at when I used the word essence. Probably the wrong word in hindsight but I see the joining of jew and gentile in Christ as "One new Man" as being very prominent in my understanding of the church.


As Peter said; the OT prophecies do speak to us in this time (and about us) and in that sense they speak of the church. But I do not believe that any OT prophets were looking forward to the "ekklesia which is his body" in the same way they were looking forward to the messiah.



EDIT:This is the quote I was alluding to from Peter (1Pe 1:10-12)



Quote:
Concerning this salvation, the prophets sought and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching for who or what kind of time the Spirit of Christ, which was in them, pointed to, when he predicted the sufferings of Christ, and the glories that would follow them.
To them it was revealed, that not to themselves, but to you, they ministered these things, which now have been announced to you through those who preached the Good News to you by the Holy Spirit sent out from heaven; which things angels desire to look into.

 2005/7/22 20:39Profile









 Re:

Philologos said:
"I think the parenthesis view of Daniel's 70 weeks is pretty well established among pretribbers?"


Stever's reply

Yes, you are correct. Also, the Book of Revelation is another:


The “Divine Outline” of Revelation, as outlined by Jon Courson, is as follows:

1. The things which thou has seen—Chapter 1
The reality of the Resurrected Jesus

2. The things which are----Chapters 2-4
Jesus gives seven messages to seven Churches that are on the earth, wherein lies the chronological flow of Church History from the beginning of the early Church to the present.

3. The things which shall be hereafter---
Chapters 4-5
The Church is raptured (“come up here, John”) and taken to heaven for a seven-year “honeymoon” with the Lord.

Chapters 6-19
The Tribulation occurs on earth as God pours out His wrath on a Christ-rejecting, sinful world.

Chapter 19
At the end of Chapter 19, the Lord comes back to Jerusalem with His church to establish His kingdom.

Chapter 20
The Millenium- a thousand-year period of peace and prosperity-follows as the Lord rules and reigns from Jerusalem. At the end of the Millennium, Satan is loosed. A final rebellion ensures before Satan is put away permanently.
Chapter 21-22
A new heaven and a new earth are created wherein we will live oh, so happily ever after.


God bless,

Stever

 2005/7/24 0:35









 Re:

Roadsign said:
"Were not the OT prophets part of that entity, for surely they were led and taught by the Spirit, and understood their need for redemption. Did they not excercise the same faith that is required of us for a Redeemer?
So maybe the Church isn't as "brand new" since Pentacost as we would assume. The difference is that Gentiles were added into it, whereas, in the OT, they were only Israelites (mainly)


LEFT BLANK - NOT QUOTED


I grew up with some dispensational teachings, and, have since abandoned that, as to me, it is a product of the creative, logical human mind. It also seems to color the perception Christians have of themselves (leads to pride, antinomianism, etc). And it erodes the message of the prophets - which I believe is very relevant today."
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Stever's response:

Roadsign: I agree with what you see quoted above.

An “Assembly” has always been a body of believers, a “congregation”---both in the Old Testament and the New Testament:

Exodus 12:6
Assembly
Strong's Number: 6951
Transliterated: qahal
Phonetic: kaw-hawl'

Text: from 6950; assemblage (usually concretely): -- assembly, company, congregation, multitude.

Lev 8:4
Assembly
Strong's Number: 6116
Transliterated: `atsarah
Phonetic: ats-aw-raw'

Text: or matsereth {ats-eh'-reth}; from 6113; an assembly, especially on a festival or holiday: --(solemn) assembly (meeting).

xxxxxxxxxxxxx

Heb 12:23
Assembly

Strong's Number: 3831
Transliterated: paneguris
Phonetic: pan-ay'-goo-ris

Text: from 3956 and a derivative of 58; a mass-meeting, i.e. (figuratively) universal companionship: --general assembly.

James 2:2
Assembly
Strong's Number: 4864
Transliterated: sunagoge
Phonetic: soon-ag-o-gay'

Text: from (the reduplicated form of) 4863; an assemblage of persons; specifically, a Jewish "synagogue" (the meeting or the place); by analogy, a Christian church: --assembly, congregation, synagogue.


God bless,

Stever

 2005/7/24 0:45









 Re:

The Old Testament is nothing more than the New Testament concealed, while the New Testament is the Old Testament revealed.

There are specific prophesies in the Old Testament that refer to the Gentiles being part of the assembly, part of the Church:

Isa 54
3. For thou shalt break forth on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall inherit the GENTILES, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited.

Isaiah 11: 10. And in that day (the thousand year reign) there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the GENTILES seek: and his rest shall be glorious.


Isaiah 42 6. I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the GENTILES;
7. To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

Isaiah 49
6. And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the GENTILES, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.
Isa 49
22. Thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I will lift up mine hand to the GENTILES, and set up my standard to the people: and they shall bring thy sons in their arms, and thy daughters shall be carried upon their shoulders.


Isa 60
3. And the GENTILES shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising. 4. Lift up thine eyes round about, and see: all they gather themselves together, they come to thee: thy sons shall come from far, and thy daughters shall be nursed at thy side.
4. 5. Then thou shalt see, and flow together, and thine heart shall fear, and be enlarged; because the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee, the forces of the GENTILES shall come unto thee.

Malachi 1:11
11. For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the GENTILES; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the Lord of hosts.



God bless,

Stever

 2005/7/24 1:05





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