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roadsign
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 Question for the scholars - re prophesies of the Church Age

Can anyone give me some Old Testament references directly speaking of the coming Church Age? I know that there are prophesies about the coming Christ, and the coming Holy Spirit, and eternity, but what about the Church?
Diane


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Diane

 2005/7/21 8:42Profile
taco
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 Re: Question for the scholars - re prophesies of the Church Age

Consider these Pauline texts:

Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of [u]the mystery kept secret since the world began[/u]

... by revelation He made known to me [u]the mystery[/u] (as I have briefly written already, 4by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), [u]which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men[/u], as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel,


[u]the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations[/u], [b]but now[/b] has been revealed to His saints. To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

Taco

 2005/7/21 9:09Profile
philologos
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 Re: Question for the scholars - re prophesies of the Church Age

Quote:
Can anyone give me some Old Testament references directly speaking of the coming Church Age? I know that there are prophesies about the coming Christ, and the coming Holy Spirit, and eternity, but what about the Church?


It is an axiom among pretrib dispensationalists that there is no mention of the church 'age' in the OT. It is essential for them to have this axiom in order to justify their view that the clock of Daniel's 70 weeks stopped and will restart at a future time. The dispensationalists regard Daniel's weeks as having suffered an hiatus or to use their usual phrase "the church age is a parenthesis" which is unrecorded in OT prophecy. Their view is that it did not hit the radar of the Old Covenant dispensation.

You refer to 'direct prophecies'. An orthodox Jew would see none of our 'direct prophecies' as pertaining to Jesus of Nazareth, so in that sense all prophecy demands interpretation and application. One pretty 'direct' prophecy which comes to mind is Psa. 22:22 I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee. The book of Hebrews certainly seems to apply this passage to the current 'church' age when it quotes it “For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.”
(Heb. 2:11-12, KJVS)

I am not a pretrib dispensationalist, so they may want to correct my interpretation of their view. :-)


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Ron Bailey

 2005/7/21 10:24Profile
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 Re: Question for the scholars - re prophesies of the Church Age

Some general prophecies speaking of the current age can be found in Genesis 22:18, Isaiah 2:1-4/Micah 4:1-8, Isaiah 19:18-25, Daniel 2:44-45, Jeremiah 31:31-34, Joel 2:28-32, Hosea 2:23, Psalm 87. Such are just some prophecies that come to mind off the top of my head about the age we currently live in.


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Jimmy H

 2005/7/21 12:02Profile
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 Re:

By the way, if anybody attempts to confuse you about OT bible prophecy regarding the Church age, specifically concerning "the mystery" hidden, the Scriptures say exactly what this mystery was that was hidden. This age itself was not a surprise to the prophets, some hidden paranthesis in God's plan, rather, the mystery is plainly this according to Paul:

Ephesians 3:4 By refering to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit; 6 [b][u]to be specific[/u], that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.[/b]

According to Paul, this is the only thing you will not find prophesied of in the Old Testament. However, that is not to say this age we are living in is not prophesied of. Such is the error of classical dispensationalism thinking.

Psalm 110 is another prophecy of this age, specifically, Psalm 110:1. This is a prophecy quoted in the NT to prove the ascension of Christ to heaven being prophesied of. If Christ is in heaven sitting at the right hand of God, then logic says He is not currently on earth. Thus, He must have asscended there. Which, would leave us with the current age.


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Jimmy H

 2005/7/21 12:22Profile









 Re: Question for the scholars - re prophesies of the Church Age

I'm not claiming scholarship for this answer; it is what I could find easily.

Paul's claim is surely more to do with the [i]systematisation[/i] - in the light of the scriptures they had available - of the meaning of the revelation that the Gentiles could be baptised in the Spirit too, as Peter himself had preached to Cornelius at an early stage.

In Romans, Paul picks up on the idea of circumscision of the heart, coined by God in Deuteronomy 10:16. Also, 'the word is night thee' Deuteronomy 30:14. And, that God would use 'a foolish nation' to make Israel jealous Deuteronomy 32:21. (Might that be the Romans, who have influenced the west, too?)

The idea of a King, or a Shepherd, automatically suggests those being ruled, or led. Sometimes it is obviously the Jews [i]but[/i] when it refers to the whole earth, would not that imply more than only the 'chosen people'.....?

Genesis 49:8 - 12, Judah
Isaiah 42:5 - 9, Gentiles
(Luke 2:32, 4:17 - 21)
John 10:16 other sheep
Genesis 49:22 - 26, Psalm 80:1 Joseph - Shepherd
EDIT add: 1 Peter 2:4 - 10 Joseph - stone
Exodus 33:7, Hebrews 13:12 - 14, without the camp
Hebrews 13:20 everlasting covenant is an OT concept.

EDIT add: OT saints or new?
Psalm 116:15, 72:14, blood of saints
Psalm 72:17 - all nations bless him

 2005/7/21 22:01
jeremyhulsey
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 Re:

Quote:
It is an axiom among pretrib dispensationalists that there is no mention of the church 'age' in the OT.



Hi Ron,

I'm one of those pre-tribbers, but I'm not aware of any such axiom :-) .


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Jeremy Hulsey

 2005/7/21 22:51Profile
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 Re: my thoughts so far

Thanks for these references and thoughts. I am not finished meditating on them yet – but have a few thoughts so far:

In the Old Testament prophetic writings, the space of time between Christ’s first and second advent seems hazy. Maybe that’s because the prophets saw right through into eternity – not bound by finite time and space. I wonder if their clearest vision regarding the church was of its eternal destiny - heaven – the New Jerusalem – New heaven and earth. After all, prophetic insight is spiritual insight – given in the spirit, by the Spirit.

It is obvious that the prophets never envisioned the church as we see it today – but as a spiritual government – reigning within hearts, and as an eternal kingdom. Jesus said, “The kingdom is within you.”

It also seems to be a conquering body – defeating the enemy (Satan). I wonder if that refers to salvation – rescuing souls from hell. I don't think it referred to the Crusades - ancient or modern.

I fear that the real Church is still "in 'parenthesis'” in the minds of most because they are carnal minded, spiritually blind, and don’t have eternity on their hearts. As a result spiritual realities regarding the church register as a blank in their minds. They produce a lot of interpretations that are bound by finite time and space and make sense to a natural, unspiritual mind – but are not explicitly stated anywhere in Scripture.

MYSTERY
Jews and Gentiles become one through redemption. .. neither Jew nor Greek....
Why was it a mystery? To whom was it a mystery?

MY CONCERN:
Error in interpreting prophesies regarding the Church/Kingdom will cause countless to follow the beast (natural, political, religious ruler) when they think they are following Christ and are part of his Church.

In the end, error makes a difference between hell and heaven.
Diane


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Diane

 2005/7/22 0:08Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
I'm one of those pre-tribbers, but I'm not aware of any such axiom


Jeremy.
Sorry, a generalisation. The early brethren who specialised in the Scofield view of things would often use the creation narrative as their model. They identified the different days with different dispensations, and in particular the fourth day “And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.” Gen. 1:14-18,) with the era of the church, saying that in that dispensation God's work was not concerning earthly things but the heavenly creation which they identified with the church. In his pretrib period Philip Mauro was a particular exponent of this view.

I think the parenthesis view of Daniel's 70 weeks is pretty well established among pretribbers?


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Ron Bailey

 2005/7/22 3:57Profile
taco
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 Re:

Quote:
o be specific, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.



I am certainly no a "pretribber" but as I understand it this (the above) is the essence of the church that Christ is building. A body of jew and gentile with the middle wall being broken down and both being heirs of the promise. I do not believe that this was prophesied is the OT and hence I don't believe that the church per se was revealed.



 2005/7/22 5:27Profile





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