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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : THE SABBATH COMMANDMENT - My Personal Testimony

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KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Scriptures to deal with

Col 2:16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day-- 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.

Paul says in this passage that observing the various rituals, including Sabbath, are now entirely optional, because they were but a mere foreshadow of what was to come in Christ.

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Galatians 4:9 But now that you have come to known God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn your back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain.

Technically, Paul is writing to converted pagans, however, the context of Galatians is chiefly interested in the Judiazing factor that is dominating this Church. Paul is not talking about them getting caught up in the old pagan holidays, for such even the Judiazers would have condemned them. Rather, the problem has to do with them getting caught up in observing Jewish ritual.

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Romans 14:5 One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God.

Paul says some people regard one day (a Sabbath) above another, but other people regard every day as being the same. Paul says, let every person follow their own convictions regarding this. If you observe a Sabbath, do it unto the Lord. But if you don't observe it, no big deal.

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So, after looking at these verses, and honestly dealing with them, how can one believe that we are obligated to keep the Sabbath day observance?


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Jimmy H

 2005/7/20 16:19Profile









 Re: Scriptures to deal with

Phil,
Yes those scriptures refer to what God gave Israel. Israel is a "type" of the church. We gentiles have been grafted in.
Keeping the commandments of Jesus, The Father, and the Apostles requires the whole counsel of scripture, and most importantly, the leading and revelation of the Holy Spirit.
King Jimmy, the jews observed many sabbaths and holidays outside the 7th day rest. To say that Col 2:6 counsels against 7th day sabbath keeping is to interpret scripture to suit yourself.
Guys, I've wrestled with this one subject for several years now. I've read strong arguments with viewpoint in every which direction. I just cannot reconcile deleting the 7th day rest from the life of a believer any more than one would justify deleting the commandment against adultery. Nor have I ever found anyone yet to give me a scriptural answer to the question, who gave man the authority to change Saturday rest to Sunday?
I have to work on Saturday. I know many good christians do too. But there ought to be a day of rest each week within the spirit of the commandment to rest and enjoy God, giving preference to the 7th day.
When it comes to worship, Brother Tozer says that if you are not worshipping God 6 days, all attempts on the 7th day are worthless. To that I say amen.
I have felt for some time now, that God is drawing whosoeverwill come, back to the basics of christianity. Worship and service, obedience and truth. If the life isn't lived, our words fall upon rock.
I'd be the first to admit that there is so much responsibility in the lifestyle we lead. Most of that is our own doing and could be our undoing. It is very difficult to live pure, clean, holy lives and survive in our society. But if anyone is in fellowship with the Father through the Son by the Holy Spirit, there ought to be a longing for fellowship with God. There ought to be a joy that is sougth in living out those things that are pleasing to God day by day. What would happen to a church, if they just said, "we will obey God, no matter what the cost?" What do you think? If we err, we err in over doing rather than under doing. Not for justification, but to please our God out of love and awe, reverence and devotion. Oh God help us all.
Regardless of what you think the condition of christianity is in the USA, you must know there is much that needs to be changed. How can the change needed be the change that pleases God if we are not willing to go back to the whole counsel of God and start there. God has not called us to be phylosophical pleasure seekers, He has called us to be His own, just as much as He did Israel. He called us and saved us to do His good pleasure. The Word says we have been "grafted in". There is no difference between jew and gentile, but the two are one in Christ. We are also one with Christ and one with the Father. Shouldn't we be peculiar enough that this oneness was easily discerned in how we live more than what we speak?
I've got to change much about the way I live, even if it kills me. I've just got to bite the bullet and say enough is enough. Easy? About as easy as being nailed to a cross. But then, that's what surrender is all about, as I understand it.
I want to thank each of you for your participation in this thread. There is value in each post. But we must rightly divide the Word of truth. If we cannot do that together, God help our witness. I'm sick and tired, fed up to the max with anything that has to do with catholic liturgy and traditions of men. If it has been added in, it needs to be stripped off. If I am the only one who feels this way, then so be it. I've had my say. I thank you for that opportunity. God bless you one and all.

in grief and frustration with myself,

Lahry

 2005/7/20 17:32
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Yes those scriptures refer to what God gave Israel. Israel is a "type" of the church. We gentiles have been grafted in.


Into what? Not the Sinaitic covenant for sure.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/7/20 18:00Profile









 Re:

Phil,
Chidding me in such a discussion as passionate as this one is to me is well below your reputation as a scholar and man of God.

In answer to your question, I submit the following:

Rom 11:16 Now if the first handful of dough offered as the firstfruits [Abraham and the patriarchs] is consecrated (holy), so is the whole mass [the nation of Israel]; and if the root [Abraham] is consecrated (holy), so are the branches. [Num. 15:19-21.]
Rom 11:17 But if some of the branches were broken off, while you, a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among them to share the richness [of the root and sap] of the olive tree,
Rom 11:18 Do not boast over the branches and pride yourself at their expense. If you do boast and feel superior, remember it is not you that support the root, but the root [that supports] you.
Rom 11:19 You will say then, Branches were broken (pruned) off so that I might be grafted in!
Rom 11:20 That is true. But they were broken (pruned) off because of their unbelief (their lack of real faith), and you are established through faith [because you do believe]. So do not become proud and conceited, but rather stand in awe and be reverently afraid.
Rom 11:21 For if God did not spare the natural branches [because of unbelief], neither will He spare you [if you are guilty of the same offense].
Rom 11:22 Then note and appreciate the gracious kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's gracious kindness to you--provided you continue in His grace and abide in His kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off (pruned away).
Rom 11:23 And even those others [the fallen branches, Jews], if they do not persist in [clinging to] their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.
Rom 11:24 For if you have been cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and against nature grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much easier will it be to graft these natural [branches] back on [the original parent stock of] their own olive tree.


Lahry

 2005/7/21 7:21
taco
Member



Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 211


 Re:

I believe that Lahry is correct, why delete the fourth commandment and not the other nine. It's all or nothing. However...

Quote:

clearly you are an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink but by the Spirit of the living God, [u]not on tablets of stone[/u] but on tablets of flesh, that is, of the heart...

But if the ministry of [b]death[/b], [u]written and engraved on stones[/u], was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?



I don't keep the sabbath commandment anymore than I keep any of the ten commandments. I don't believe that I have been asked to keep them.




 2005/7/21 7:31Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Chidding me in such a discussion as passionate as this one is to me is well below your reputation as a scholar and man of God.


Lahry
I assure you that I am not 'chidding' you at all in my posts. I am genuinely trying to understand why you think the way you do. I am not very concerned with my reputation but you misjudge me.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/7/21 9:58Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Do not boast over the branches and pride yourself at their expense. If you do boast and feel superior, remember it is not you that support the root, but the root [that supports] you.



Hi Lahry,

Who in your estimation is 'the root'?


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Robert Wurtz II

 2005/7/21 10:12Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
I just cannot reconcile deleting the 7th day rest from the life of a believer any more than one would justify deleting the commandment against adultery.



Paul deals extensively with these topics and they are not easy to grapple with. We are told not to allow anyone to judge us in meat, dring, new moon, and [u]Sabbath[/u] days... One man esteems one day above another and one man esteems every day alike. Let everyone be fully persuaded in his own mind.

Yet, if we keep the 10 Commandments in a rigid legalistic way we must remember that the Jews codified the whole law into 613 Commandments. On top of that they built 'fences' around those laws until there are literally volumes and volumes of commentary on those laws.

I think it is a misunderstanding to believe that if we come more under the Law we will be more 'spiritual'. Paul asked the church at Galatia... "Having begun in the Spirit are you now made perfect in the flesh..."

Can God accept anything that 'the flesh' has handled? They that are in the flesh cannot please God no matter if they are in gross sin or self-righteousness. Flesh, is flesh, is flesh, is flesh.

"...after that [u]ye have known God[/u], or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain." (Galatians 4)

Notice that Paul seems to be limiting how far the law can take a person in "knowing God". This is vitally important. Rules do not equate a relationship with God. I am not promoting antinomianism at all; but what would happen if when you were asked what marriage was like you would hand out a list:

1) You can't...
2) You can't...
3) You can't...

And when you get ready to improve the relationship you add to this list? Laws do not do justice to the dynamic of our relationship with God. Granted our relationship is goverened by 'laws' we must not get confused and become legalists who "having begun in the Spirit" are now so far from God through legalistic laws that the Gospel we heard was in vain and Christ needs to be formed in us again.

Was it in vain? They did run well, what happened? More importantly what needs to be done now?


"...my little children, [u]of whom again I travail in birth[/u], till Christ may be formed in you,..."


What caused the regression? They tried to go back under the law.

To give you an idea how serious Paul was in this letter, in case the anathemas leveled in Chapter 1 were not enough, it was written with His own hand. "You see with what 'large letters' I have written unto you..." In his own handwriting he penned these excessively large letters (probably due to his eye condition). What did they think when they saw HIS personal handwriting- knowing that they would have plucked out their own eyes and given to them if possible? They knew that he went to great trouble to write that and when they saw the 'bold' letters they knew there was trouble. That is how serious it is to introduce 'law' into our relationship with God once we have begun in the Spirit.

God Bless,

-Robert


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Robert Wurtz II

 2005/7/21 10:35Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Interesting note: The aposlte Paul never gives thanks for the Galatians in his letter to them... such he does in every other letter he writes to every other church (even in Corinth!) Serious stuff!


_________________
Jimmy H

 2005/7/21 12:32Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

King Jimmy, the jews observed many sabbaths and holidays outside the 7th day rest. To say that Col 2:6 counsels against 7th day sabbath keeping is to interpret scripture to suit yourself.



Indeed, they did observe many Sabbaths. These other Sabbaths were much like branches that came forth from the stump, based entirely upon the original Sabbath commandment.

Col 2:16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day-- 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.

Paul talks about Sabbath day observance in general. He says all these things, festivals, food and drink regulations, Sabbaths, etc., were all but mere shadows which anticipated Christ. He groups Sabbath observance in with the the other ceremonial and dietary laws, and says of it: "it is a mere shadow" which has given way to the substance, in Christ.

I'm not interpreting Scripture to suit my fancy. I used to truly believe we as Christians were required to keep the Sabbath. However, Christ has since opened my eyes to what the Scriptures say requiring it, and now I understand I'm under no obligation to keep such, nor is to any act as my judge regarding it!

Also, instead of simply saying I am interpreting Col 2:16-17 wrongly, please show me what the correct interpretation of it is. I am all for right living, and keeping the commandments of the Lord, and if I am in error regarding them, I desire greatly to know it. I love the Lord with all my heart, and want nothing more than His will.


_________________
Jimmy H

 2005/7/21 12:41Profile





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