| Reply to TMK on the Man of Sin|
No where in scripture is this “man” you mention called the Antichrist. We truly have no idea what Paul was talking about because he does not tell us. Apparently he told the church he had visited but does not spell it out for us except in the most vague terms that can be interpreted many ways.
I certainly don’t intend to do so./
Major doctrines and points in the Bible are usually established by not just one reference or even two but by many scriptures being compared in a cross reference manner. I know you know that. It's the same in this instance.
1) The spirit of antichrist is already loose and operating in the world.
2) Many antichrists have already gone out proclaiming that Jesus was not God in the flesh and also opposing God and His revealed truth.
3) "THE" Antichrist who is to come.
We are looking for number three. We find it in I John 2:18 - "Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that THE ANTICHRIST is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know it is the last hour."
So a singular Antichrist is coming - "the antichrist."
Paul wrote in II Thess 2:3-4:
3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day (the Day of the Lord) will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the MAN of sin is revealed, the SON of perdition.
4 WHO opposes and exalts HIMSELF above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that HE sits as God in the temple of God, showing HIMSELF that HE is God.
Verse 4 above is an almost direct quote from Daniel 11:36 - "The KING (a person I presume) shall do according to HIS own will: HE shall magnify HIMSELF above every god, and shall speak blasphemies against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the wrath has been accomplished; for what has been determined shall be done."
This willful king who does according to his own will and magnifies HIMSELF above every God is the same person Paul is referring to in II Thess 2:4 who opposes HIMSELF above all that is called God or worshiped.
So we Paul's man of sin has already been mentioned in the Old Testament which is exactly what Paul is referring to. So this person in II Thess 2:4 may also be called the willful king of Daniel's prophecies. And Daniel had been speaking in Daniel chapters 7 and 8 of a little horn who centers his wrath on the Jewish people at the time of the end. So this willful blaspheming king, Paul's man of sin/the son of perdition is the same. It's the antichrist of I John 2:18. It's the beast of Revelation 13.
- Daniel's little horn
- Daniel's willful king who magnifies himself above God
- Paul's man of sin/son of perdition who exalts himself
- The lawless one (II Thess 2:9)
- "The" Antichrist of I John 2:18
- The beast of Revelation 13
* They are all one and the same.
One scripture reference proves nothing. They must be taken together as a whole.
Paul wrote in II Thess 2:8: And the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
Who is this lawless one who has become so advanced and great in iniquity and lawlessness that Christ will destroy at His second coming? HE is singled out specifically for destruction when Christ comes. It's the one who will be persecuting the Jewish people and Christians (Rev 12:17). Daniel's little horn.
Daniel was told many times that to understand His visions He should understand that the visions pertained to the time of the end. Christ comes again at the time of the end, at the Day of the Lord, and this is when the dead are resurrected along with the Antichrist being destroyed at His coming. The resurrection has not happened already so it seems logical the Antichrist Himself has not appeared yet -
"Let no one deceive you by any means: for that Day (the Day of the Lord) will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the MAN of sin is revealed, the SON of perdition."
- A great falling away and apostatsy occurs
- The man of sin is revealed
- Christ comes again coinciding with the resurrection of
- The man of sin, the lawless one is destroyed at Christ's
It's a very plain and understandable sequence of events. I guarantee that we are presently in a great falling away from the faith such as never seen before that must occur sio it could very well be the apostatsy that is to occur before the lawless one is revealed. So there is more to come since Christ has not come and destroyed the lawless one. I believe from scripture evidence that He will be a MAN - "the" singular Antichrist.
Since Preterism's belief that all has already occurred has replacement theology as its foundation, it's no wonder the plain meaning of scripture has to be tampered with a bit. I don't believe all has already occurred since Christ has not come again and the dead have not been raised and the Antichrist destroyed at the brightness of Christ's coming. If Preterism acknowledges that the Antichrist will be a literal person and human being of the future then they have to acknowledge that he will persecute a literal nation of Israel. That is something that Preterism and replacement theology will not do. Not to mention their problem with the resurrection still being future which coincides with the second coming and destruction of this "MAN."
Prophecy has peculiar value for the Christian because we can know beforehand what is going to occur. And therefore learn to conduct ourselves accordingly. The church can takes strong encouragement and even edification in knowing future events beforehand being and therefore being diligently prepared. What better prayer can we make for the church, the apple of God's eye whom He has also engraved on the palms of His hands. It will be an OVERCOMING church against which the gates of hell shall not prevail.
| 2020/3/9 11:18||Profile|
| Re: Reply to TMK on the Man of Sin|
I'm only writing one more time.
First things first.
Most people here would probably say that "all Scripture is inspired..." That means that God Himself through the Holy Spirit dictated every word that is in the Bible. God chose the words "Man of Sin". Those words don't need to be explained.
If God is our authority we don't touch them!
If we think we need to then where do we stop?
The temple becomes "the third" temple.
"70 weeks" no longer end after 70 weeks
Out of "many tribulations" - we suddenly have a "seven year" tribulation. There are probably more examples i could list.
Leave every word exactly as God dictated it and see how far you get. If you would like to add or disagree, fine.
BUT only use Scripture references. God is my authority !
DON't quote me other books and authors etc and don't give me a history lesson.
In general terms;
We are living in very difficult times.
We need to submit to God and His word and be prepared to say: "Thus says the Lord..."
If not, the devil will have an easy time to manipulate us. Beware!
There are some more deeper issues in those endless discussions, but I might cover them in another thread.
May the Lord Himself give you wisdom.-
"Choose this day..."
| 2020/3/9 19:17||Profile|
"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11
| Re: |
"Our Lord Himself spoke of him as the one who should “come in his own name”, and who would be “received” by Israel ( John 5:43). The apostle Paul gives us a full length picture of him in 2 Thessalonians 2, where he is denominated “that Man of Sin, the Son of Perdition”, who coming shall be “after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders”. The apostle John mentions him by name, and declares that he will deny both the Father and the Son ( 1 John 2:22). While in the Apocalypse, the last book in the Bible, all these lines of prophecy are found to converge in “the Beast” who shall ultimately be cast, together with the False Prophet, into the lake of fire, there to be joined a thousand years later by the Devil himself, to suffer for ever and ever in that fire specially “prepared” by God.
The appearing of the Antichrist is a most appalling and momentous subject, and in the past, many well-meaning writers have deprived this impending event of much of its terror and meaning, by confusing some of the antichrists that have already appeared at various intervals on the stage of human history, with that mysterious being who will tower high above all the sons of Belial, being no less than Satan’s counterfeit and opposer of the Christ of God, who is infinitely exalted above all the sons of God. It promotes the interests of Satan to keep the world in ignorance of the coming Super-man, and there can be no doubt that he is the one who is responsible for the general neglect in the study of this subject, and the author, too, of the conflicting testimony which is being given out by those who speak and write concerning it."
" It is a dangerous thing to underrate the extent of Satan's agency in the world, raising as he has ever done from the day of his first perversion and misinterpretation of God's words in the garden of Eden, mists of delusion and error to distort or conceal what God intended His people should be aware of for their warning as well as for their comfort. He knows well in our day that his time is fast shortening, and he knows too of the increasing power he is to be permitted to exercise in the time of the end (Rev. 12:12; and 13:2).
So whilst the "sure word of prophecy", if given heed to, would have been and still be "a light" shining in the dark passages through which the course of events is leading, his efforts have been constantly and successfully directed to darken and perplex the future, by hiding the simplicity of the truth under fanciful coverings, and so leading even God's people to be looking in wrong directions, that, if possible, they may be deceived or overthrown, even as His ancient people themselves were, when the issue itself is really at hand.
The idea of a personal literal Antichrist is what he seems especially to have sought to render ridiculous, or rather, to banish altogether, in these days which to all appearance so closely precede his being revealed: and yet if such an embodiment of evil (as it is desired to show) is really to be, to what ought the attention of the church be directed more seriously than to this? The fanciful and metaphorical interpreters already referred to, have worked hard to make the pope or the papacy (it is difficult sometimes to know which) answer the description given in Scripture of the man of sin when he is seen. Some plausibility has been given to their attempts by the occurrence of certain points of resemblance, for all forms of error and evil will be found summed up in the embodiment which is to be at the end, "when the transgressors are come to the full" (Dan. 8:23). But the great and distinguishing marks themselves are not, and will not be seen till he who is to carry them all is revealed."
- Andrew Bonar
SI Moderator - Greg Gordon
| 2020/3/9 19:32||Profile|
| Re: A. W. Pink recanted |
A. W. Pink wrote in 1923,
In John 17:12 we have a word which, more plainly still, shows that the Antichrist will be Judas reincarnated, for here he is termed by Christ "The Son of Perdition". But first let us consider the teaching of Scripture concerning Judas Iscariot. Who is he? He was a "man" (Matt. 26:24). But was he moree than a man? Let Scripture make answer. In John 6:70 we read, "Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a Devil?" It is hardly necessary to say that in the Greek there are two different words for "Devil" and "demon". There are many demons, but only one Devil. Further, in no other passage is the word "devil" applied to any one but to Satan himself. Judas then was the Devil incarnate, just as the Lord Jesus was God incarnate. Christ Himself said so, and we dare not doubt His word.
As we have seen, in John 17:12 Christ termed Judas "the Son of Perdition", and 2 Thess. 2 :3 we find that the Antichrist is similarly designated- "That Man of Sin be revealed, the Son of Perdition". These are the only two places in all the Bible where his name occurs, and the fact that Judas was termed by Christ not a "son of perdition", but "the Son of Perdition", and the fact that the Man of Sin is so named prove that they are one and the same person. What other conclusion can a simple and unprejudiced reader of the Bible come to?
In Rev. 11:7 we have the first reference to "the Beast" in the Apocalypse: "The Beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit". Here the Antichrist is seen issuing forth from the Abyss. What is the Abyss? It is the abode of lost spirits, the place of their incarceration and torment&emdash; see Rev. 20:1-3, and Luke 8:31, "deep" is "abyss" and cf. Matt. 9:28. The question naturally arises, How did he get there? and when was he sent there? We answer. When Judas Iscariot died! The Antichrist will be Judas Iscariot reincarnated. In proof of this we appeal to Acts 1 :25 where we are told, "that he mav take part of this ministry and apostleship from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place". Of no one else in all the Bible is it said that at death he went "to his own place". Put these two scriptures together: Judas went "to his own place", the Beast ascends out of the Abyss.
In his later years Pink rejected his book on The Antichrist.
"I do not recommend you read my book on the Anti-Christ."
He also rejected dispensationalism in his later years, even writing a refutation of the same.
He aligned himself more with the a-mil position on eschatology.
"Be slow to speak, quick to listen, and slow to become angry."
| 2020/3/10 7:36||Profile|
| Re: |
From Matthew Henry’s commentary of 2 Thess. 2- He makes a very solid case for this man of sin being the popes/papacy. It all fits very well.
1. The names of this person, or rather the state and power here spoken of. He is called the man of sin, to denote his egregious wickedness; not only is he addicted to, and practises, wickedness himself, but he also promotes, countenances, and commands sin and wickedness in others; and he is the son of perdition, because he himself is devoted to certain destruction, and is the instrument of destroying many others both in soul and body. These names may properly be applied, for these reasons, to the papal state; and thereto agree also,
2. The characters here given, v. 4.
(1.) That he opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God, or is worshipped; and thus have the bishops of Rome not only opposed God's authority, and that of the civil magistrates, who are called gods, but have exalted themselves above God and earthly governors, in demanding greater regard to their commands than to the commands of God or the magistrate.
(2.) As God, he sits in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. As God was in the temple of old, and worshipped there, and is in and with his church now, so the antichrist here mentioned is some usurper of God's authority in the Christian church, who claims divine honours; and to whom can this better apply than to the bishops of Rome, to whom the most blasphemous titles have been given, as Dominus Deus noster papa-Our Lord God the pope; Deus alter in terrâ-Another God on earth; Idem est dominium Dei et papae-The dominion of God and the pope is the same?
3. His rise is mentioned, v. 6, 7. Concerning this we are to observe two things:-
(1.) There was something that hindered or withheld, or let, until it was taken away. This is supposed to be the power of the Roman empire, which the apostle did not think fit to mention more plainly at that time; and it is notorious that, while this power continued, it prevented the advances of the bishops of Rome to that height of tyranny to which soon afterwards they arrived.
(2.) This mystery of iniquity was gradually to arrive at its height; and so it was in effect that the universal corruption of doctrine and worship in the Romish church came in by degrees, and the usurpation of the bishops of Rome was gradual, not all at once; and thus the mystery of iniquity did the more easily, and almost insensibly, prevail. The apostle justly calls it a mystery of iniquity, because wicked designs and actions were concealed under false shows and pretences, at least they were concealed from the common view and observation. By pretended devotion, superstition and idolatry were advanced; and, by a pretended zeal for God and his glory, bigotry and persecution were promoted. And he tells us that this mystery of iniquity did even then begin, or did already work. While the apostles were yet living, the enemy came, and sowed tares; there were then the deeds of the Nicolaitans, persons who pretended zeal for Christ, but really opposed him. Pride, ambition, and worldly interest of church-pastors and church-rulers, as in Diotrephes and others, were the early working of the mystery of iniquity, which, by degrees, came to that prodigious height which has been visible in the church of Rome.
4. The fall or ruin of the antichristian state is declared, v. 8. The head of this antichristian kingdom is called that wicked one, or that lawless person who sets up a human power in competition with, and contradiction to, the divine dominion and power of the Lord Jesus Christ; but, as he would thus manifest himself to be the man of sin, so the revelation or discovery of this to the world would be the sure presage and the means of his ruin. The apostle assures the Thessalonians that the Lord would consume and destroy him; the consuming of him precedes his final destruction, and that is by the Spirit of his mouth, by his word of command; the pure word of God, accompanied with the Spirit of God, will discover this mystery of iniquity, and make the power of antichrist to consume and waste away; and in due time it will be totally and finally destroyed, and this will be by the brightness of Christ's coming. Note, The coming of Christ to destroy the wicked will be with peculiar glory and eminent lustre and brightness.
5. The apostle further describes the reign and rule of this man of sin. Here we are to observe,
(1.) The manner of his coming, or ruling, and working: in general, that it is after the example of Satan, the grand enemy of souls, the great adversary of God and man. He is the great patron of error and lies, the sworn enemy of the truth as it is in Jesus and all the faithful followers of Jesus. More particularly, it is with Satanical power and deceit. A divine power is pretended for the support of this kingdom, but it is only after the working of Satan. Signs and wonders, visions and miracles, are pretended; by these the papal kingdom was first set up, and has all along been kept up, but they have false signs to support false doctrines; and lying wonders, or only pretended miracles that have served their cause, things false in fact, or fraudulently managed, to impose upon the people: and the diabolical deceits with which the antichristian state has been supported are notorious. The apostle calls it all deceivableness of unrighteousness, v. 10. Others may call them pious frauds, but the apostle called them unrighteous and wicked frauds; and, indeed, all fraud (which is contrary to truth) is an impious thing. Many are the subtle artifices the man of sin has used, and various are the plausible pretences by which he had beguiled unwary and unstable souls to embrace false doctrines, and submit to his usurped dominion.
(2.) The persons are described who are his willing subjects, or most likely to become such, v. 10. They are such as love not the truth that they may be saved. They heard the truth (it may be), but they did not love it; they could not bear sound doctrine, and therefore easily imbibed false doctrines; they had some notional knowledge of what was true, but they indulged some powerful prejudices, and so became a prey to seducers. Had they loved the truth, they would have persevered in it, and been preserved by it; but no wonder if they easily parted with what they never had any love to. And of these persons it is said that they perish or are lost; they are in a lost condition, and in danger to be lost for ever. For,
6. We have the sin and ruin of the subjects of antichrist's kingdom declared, v. 11, 12.
(1.) Their sin is this: They believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness: they did not love the truth, and therefore they did not believe it; and, because they did not believe the truth, therefore they had pleasure in unrighteousness, or in wicked actions, and were pleased with false notions. Note, An erroneous mind and vicious life often go together and help forward one another.
(2.) Their ruin is thus expressed: God shall send them strong delusions, to believe a lie. Thus he will punish men for their unbelief, and for their dislike of the truth and love to sin and wickedness; not that God is the author of sin, but in righteousness he sometimes withdraws his grace from such sinners as are here mentioned; he gives them over to Satan, or leaves them to be deluded by his instruments; he gives them up to their own hearts' lusts, and leaves them to themselves, and then sin will follow of course, yea, the worst of wickedness, that shall end at last in eternal damnation. God is just when he inflicts spiritual judgments here, and eternal punishments hereafter, upon those who have no love to the truths of the gospel, who will not believe them, nor live suitably to them, but indulge false doctrines in their minds, and wicked practices in their lives and conversations.
| 2020/3/10 10:45||Profile|
| Re: |
36 “Then the king will do as he pleases, and he will exalt and magnify himself above every god and will speak [as]monstrous things against the God of gods; and he will prosper until the indignation is finished, for that which is decreed will be done. (Daniel 11:36)
4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God,. (II Thessalonians 2:4)
Paul was quoting from Daniel 11:36. So are to believe this was the Papacy spoken of in the Old Testament?
| 2020/3/10 17:20||Profile|
| Re: |
He grew very proud, insolent, and profane, and, being puffed up with his conquests, bade defiance to Heaven, and trampled upon every thing that was sacred, v. 36, etc. And here some think begins a prophecy of the antichrist, the papal kingdom. It is plain that St. Paul, in his prophecy of the rise and reign of the man of sin, alludes to this (2 Th. 2:4), which shows that Antiochus was a type and figure of that enemy, as Babylon also was; but, this being joined in a continued discourse with the foregoing prophecies concerning Antiochus, to me it seems probably that it principally refers to him, and in him had its primary accomplishment, and has reference to the other only by way of accommodation.
(1.) He shall impiously dishonour the God of Israel, the only living and true God, called here the God of gods. He shall, in defiance of him and his authority, do according to his will against his people and his holy religion; he shall exalt himself above him, as Sennacherib did, and shall speak marvellous things against him and against his laws and institutions. This was fulfilled when Antiochus forbade sacrifices to be offered in God's temple, and ordered the sabbaths to be profaned, the sanctuary and the holy people to be polluted, etc., to the end that they might forget the law and change all the ordinances, and this upon pain of death, 1 Mac. 1:45.
(2.) He shall proudly put contempt upon all other gods, shall magnify himself above every god, even the gods of the nations. Antiochus wrote to his own kingdom that every one should leave the gods he had worshipped, and worship such as he ordered, contrary to the practice of all the conquerors that went before him, 1 Mac. 1:41, 42. And all the heathen agreed according to the commandment of the king; fond as they were of their gods, they did not think them worth suffering for, but, their gods being idols, it was all alike to them what gods they worshipped. Antiochus did not regard any god, but magnified himself above all, v. 37. He was so proud that he thought himself above the condition of a mortal man, that he could command the waves of the sea, and reach to the stars of heaven, as his insolence and haughtiness are expressed, 2 Mac. 9:8, 10. Thus he carried all before him, till the indignation was accomplished (v. 36), till he had run his length, and filled up the measure of his iniquity; for that which is determined shall be done, and nothing more, nothing short.
(3.) He shall, contrary to the way of the heathen, disregard the god of his fathers, v. 37. Though an affection to the religion of their ancestors was, among the heathen, almost as natural to them as the desire of women (for, if you search through the isles of Chittim, you will not find an instance of a nation that has changed its gods, Jer. 2:10, 11), yet Antiochus shall not regard the god of his fathers; he made laws to abolish the religion of his country, and to bring in the idols of the Greeks. And though his predecessors had honoured the God of Israel, and given great gifts to the temple at Jerusalem (2 Mac. 3:2, 3), he offered the greatest indignities to God and his temple. His not regarding the desire of women may denote his barbarous cruelty (he shall spare no age or sex, no, not the tender ones) or his unnatural lusts, or, in general, his contempt of every thing which men of honour have a concern for, or it might be accomplished in something we meet not with in history. Its being joined to his not regarding the god of his fathers intimates that the idolatries of his country had in them more of the gratifications of the flesh than those of other countries (Lucian has written of the Syrian goddesses), and yet that would not prevail to keep him to them.
(4.) He shall set up an unknown god, a new god, v. 38. In his estate, in the room of the god of his fathers (Apollo and Diana, deities of pleasure), he shall honour the god of forces, a supposed deity of power, a god whom his fathers knew not, nor worshipped; because he will be thought in wisdom and strength to excel his fathers, he shall honour this god with gold, and silver, and precious stones, thinking nothing too good for the god he has taken a fancy to. This seems to be Jupiter Olympius, known among the Phoenicians by the name of Baal-Semen, the lord of heaven, but never introduced among the Syrians till Antiochus introduced it. Thus shall he do in the most strong holds, in the temple of Jerusalem, which is called the sanctuary of strength (v. 31), and here the fortresses of munitions; there he shall set up the image of this strange god. Some read it, He shall commit the munitions of strength, or of the most strong God (that is, the city Jerusalem), to a strange god; he put it under the protection and government of Jupiter Olympius. This god he shall not only acknowledge, but shall increase with glory, by setting his image even upon God's altar. And he shall cause those that minister to this idol to rule over many, shall put them into places of power and trust, and they shall divide the land for gain, shall be maintained richly out of the profits of the country. Some by the Mahuzzim, or god of forces, that Antiochus shall worship, understand money, which is said to answer all things, and which is the great idol of worldly people.
Now here is very much that is applicable to the man of sin; he exalts himself above all that is called god or that is worshipped; magnifies himself above all; his flatterers call him our lord god the pope. By forbidding marriage, and magnifying the single life, he pretends not to regard the desire of women; and honours the god of forces, the god Mahuzzim, or strong holds, saints and angels, whom his followers take for their protectors, as the heathen did of old their demons; these they make presidents of several countries, etc. These they honour with vast treasures dedicated to them, and therein the learned Mr. Mede thinks that this prophecy was fulfilled, and that it is referred to 1 Tim. 4:1, 2.
| 2020/3/10 17:26||Profile|
| Re: |
Yet the willful king of Daniel 11:36 is the little horn spoken of in Daniel chapters 7 and 8. If the scriptures regarding this person are taken in their totality and symmetry no honest conclusion can lead to the conclusion that the Papacy is the Antichrist.
45 HE will pitch the tents of HIS royal pavilion between the seas and the beautiful Holy Mountain; yet HE will come to HIS end, and no one will help HIM. (Daniel 11:45)
When did or when will the Papacy plant its tents between the sea and Jerusalem where it will come to its end?
| 2020/3/10 17:50||Profile|
| Re: |
good to know. That's why it is important to establish a Biblical foundation first.
If we can't or if it is shaky then we we should be very careful and concerned.
I'm aware of this. This has been the teaching over many centuries and it runs right through Scripture.
Interestingly the leadership of the RCC realised that as well. Then they came up with an alternative teaching which eventually made it into the churches.
You can find this in Church History. Everyone can do their own research
Another point.The Pope is called the Vicar or Representative of the Son of God.
God will not tolerate this !
Just some more infos for those who are interested and want to do their own studies.
| 2020/3/10 18:16||Profile|
| Re: |
David- is the antichrist going to live in tents?
| 2020/3/10 18:33||Profile|